This talk page is for discussing Penance master horn.
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Contents 1 Determining Exact Potential Per Wave 2 Proposal for more Rigorous Testing 3 Benefits 4 EXP GAIN 5 Gnome Stronghold Extended Course 6 Wear it to charge? 7 Does Level Matter, and how many POINTS would it take to fill? 8 Horn charge and use test 9 Firemaking? 10 1% per wave? 11 Agility experience with brawlers 12 Horn + Mastered skills 13 Does the horn degrade your brawlers faster 14 Brimhaven Agility Dungeon? 15 Does horn charge degrade based on exp gained or # of tasks?

Determining Exact Potential Per WaveEdit

The XP potential gained on each wave is constant. I am storing the values for each wave (determined by doing the wave repeatedly and dividing potential gained by waves run) here. adeadhead ^TalkHS_Tribs 01:21, June 7, 2012 (UTC)

Wave	Percent
Wave 1	??
Wave 2	0.5%
Wave 3	??
Wave 4	??
Wave 5	??
Wave 6	0.8%
Wave 7	??
Wave 8	??
Wave 9	1.1%
Wave 10	??

Proposal for more Rigorous TestingEdit

The article has a whole lot of speculation at the moment and I would like to propose some tests to be done to convert some of it into confirmed fact; I still have exams so I won't be able to contribute for the moment but I will in a week or so if no one else has done the testing.

TEST 1

The test currently done on the main page only shows conclusively that it is better to do higher waves than lower (on average), but we do not know if this is because the amount of potential given is due to the amount of points given, or if higher waves simply give more potential (or a 'flat' amount of potential). This leads to my first proposed test.

1. Using an empty Penance Master Horn, complete Wave 1 once getting the maximum amount of points (i.e. 5120 LP healed, NO wrong poison used, NO wrong attacks made, etc.). If you are getting potential you can not see how many "points" you got for a wave, so you will have to ask what the score is like from team mate who is not gaining potential, perhaps get them to take a screenshot since it can be difficult to remember depending on what role you took.

2. Empty the Penance Master Horn by burning Maple Logs. Record the amount of Firemaking experience gained.

3. Using the empty Penance Master Horn, complete Wave 1 once getting the minimum amount of points, and using the same role as before.

4. Empty the Penance Master Horn by burning Maple Logs (having the same Firemaking level as in 2.). Record the amount of Firemaking experience gained.

If the same amount of exerience is given for both attempts, then we will have shown that the numbers of points given in a game do not make a difference, and hence only the wave number matters. If there is a different amount of experience given (presumably with the test done in parts 3 and 4 giving more experience), then we will have conclusively shown that the amount of points given does matter, though we will still not know if the wave number effects the amount of potential given besides giving more points on average (we would need a more difficult test to show that).

Wave 1 is chosen for simplicity of testing, since firstly we can repeat Wave 1 however many times we want, and secondly we can make sure the test conditions are the same (if we wanted to repeat Wave 2, for example, we would have to repeat Wave 1 also, which means the amount of points could vary between the two tests).Anincent 10:31, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Higher waves can be tested by clearing the waves up until the wave you wish to test, then leaving to empty the horn. Upon returning, there will be 0% left in the horn and completing the wave will leave a charge from only the last wave completed. This method would require a more organized team, as it is difficult finding a team for a wave higher than 1.Tetsujin IX 10:23, June 3, 2012 (EST)

Test 1 Results

Test	Firemaking level	Firemaking experience gained
Wave 1 with minimum points	70 (please replace with your results)	5500 (please replace with your results)
Wave 1 with maximum points	70 (please replace with your results)	5600 (please replace with your results)

Comments from the tester:

TEST 2

When clicking the 'check-potential' option on the horn, it reads "While equipped, the horn doubles the XP you receive. The amount you can use to gain this XP depends upon the activity and your skill level." I bolded the important part. This implies that if you are a higher level then you will get more experience. This leads to the following test:

1. Using an empty Penance Master Horn, complete Wave 1 once getting some amount of points. If you are getting potential you can not see how many "points" you got for a wave, so you will have to ask a team mate who is not gaining potential.

2. Empty the Penance Master Horn by burning Maple Logs. Record the amount of Firemaking experience gained.

3. Using the empty Penance Master Horn, complete Wave 1 once getting the exactly same amount of points as in Part 1 (this might be easiest if the absolute maximum amount of points is obtained, i.e no fails with 5120 LP healed in the game, though if you are able to get the same amount of points without doing this then that is good too), and using the same role as before.

4. Empty the Penance Master Horn by burning Maple Logs with a different firemaking level. Record the amount of Firemaking experience gained.

I think there is a high likelihood that there will be a different amount of experience given, given the quotation I made earlier. This would mean the article is wrong (for listing specific amounts of experience given for a full horn, i.e. it's stated that a full horn lasts 1170k experience in mining).Anincent 10:31, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Test 2 Results

Test	Firemaking level	Firemaking experience gained
Wave 1	70 (please replace with your results)	5500 (please replace with your results)
Wave 1 (with same points as before)	71 (please replace with your results)	5600 (please replace with your results)

Comments from the tester:

After these two tests are done, we could be able to procede a little further, based on what the results are. There is a lot to be worked out. If, for example, the amount of experience given is static per wave, we could possibly work out how much experience each waves gives. This will at least give us the proportionality of the different waves (i.e. Wave 9 gives 2 times as much potential as Wave 1 sort of thing). We could then possibly work out things like how level affects the experience given, although we would need a whole lot of data for that.Anincent 10:31, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

TEST 3

Filling an empty Penance Master horn on 2 methodes. Doing Teams 1-5 and Doing 1-10.

Tested this myself and my result is as follows:

My expirement: Filling penance Master horn. First column is the status of the horn. Second column is number of waves needed by doing (1-5)teams. Third column is number of waves needed by doing (1-10) teams.

Total	156 (Doing 1-5)	118 (Doing 1-10)
Your horn is empty.	0	0
Your horn is almost empty.	2	2
Your horn has only a little potential remaining.	4	4
Your horn is less than a quarter full.	14	11
Your horn is around a quarter full.	29	22
Your horn is around a third full.	41	33
Your horn is almost half full.	54	43
Your horn is around half full.	65	50
Your horn is around two thirds full.	80	63
Your horn is less than three quarters full.	106	80
Your horn is around three quarters full.	110	84
Your horn is more than three quarters full.	116	90
Your horn is almost full.	132	101
Your horn is full.	156	118

I can confirm that points gained in a round has no effect on the horn potential gained. adeadhead ^TalkHS_Tribs 07:25, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

BenefitsEdit

Is there any advantage the master horn has over the normal horn? Or is it just a way to show off the fact that you've gotten to level 5 in something? Soy the Stig 19:25, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

I'd assume the master horn accumulates charges faster, otherwise it wouldn't be worth it for those who have reached lv 5. Dsctatom 21:10, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Either that, or it can simply hold more charge that the normal horn...or perhaps both.216.73.67.21 17:02, January 20, 2010 (UTC)Unjustifier

The charges it holds last longer =P 10-10-10 -Corny105(XAgileWolfX right now)

EXP GAINEdit

33 rounds finished, finally hit "about 1/3 full". That leads me to estimate that it will take about 100 rounds to fill my horn. Given that it appears that it takes aproximately 50 rounds to fill the basic horn, this leads me to believe that it has a capacity twice that of the basic horn, and thus double the exp, bringing the total to 700K exp. This of course is theory. It also leeds me to ponder if the rewards are wave-based, or point based. I'll be able to confirm after 67 more waves. - Theta Zero

Im hoping it gives an advantage over the other horn; and it seems so. The horn IS bigger, and if they just wanted it to have an emote wouldnt they just

add the emote to the normal horn? I also found that the horn is point based, so im guessing the higher waves mean higher energy?

InMyOpinion 00:25, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

Seems likely. After 50 waves (just finished), I'm still "almost halfway full." Must have been a fluke that 33 waves was 1/3. However, I do still predict the total is 700K exp (meaning 350K free exp).- Theta Zero

{C}" 33 rounds finished, finally hit "about 1/3 full" " - can you give a rough estimate on the number of hours 33 rounds takes? Longer than 1 hour? Around 2 hours?

{C}
{C}Sort of just thinking out loud a bit here, but let's consider Agility with Barbarian Extended Course - it's possible to get 72,100 Agility XP / Hour there at a very good pace. So 72,100 * 2 = 144,200 Agility XP / Hour with Master horn.

Now say the Master horn lasts twice as long as the regular Penance horn. This means (according to a bit of speculation and data) the Master horn will last for 700K Agility XP (double that of the regular horn, and someone stated the regular horn lasted for 350K Agility XP).

So, by this presumption of the Master horn lasting 700K Agility XP, the horn will last for 4.9 (close enough to 5) hours of Agility training at Barbarian Course.

So to make this horn worth filling to train Agility, you must be able to FULLY fill the Master horn in 4.8 (close enough to 5) hours.

SO if anyone can confirm that it is possible to fully fill the Master horn in less than 5 hours, we know they've made Agility faster with the new update (if you choose to accept my various assumptions stated above).

UNWATCHABLE 00:50, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

I've heard that a good Barbarian Assault team generally takes about 40 minutes to complete all ten waves. Perhaps that may help you do the math (I don't know how many waves it takes to completely charge it).  Tien  01:22, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

I know that Pro Barbarian Assault team generally takes about 20-25 mins to complete al ten waves.

That's about correct, so assuming everyone has level 5 in their rolls, 2 attackers or 2 defenders (2 healers aren't needed if the team is high-leveled), and everyone in the high 130's, I'd assume a team could top out at about 30 minutes. Bringing the total of 100 waves to 6 hours. - Theta Zero

Actually, the most efficient way of playing for exp potential depends on one thing: does the exp potential fill by point, or by a fixed number for each wave? If it is by point, the most efficient way of gaining points is, and has always been, having a team comprised of individuals with low defence and high hitpoints. 2 level 5 healers ensure survival, armour is taken off for all but the last wave. 10-35 healing points (depending on wave number and how fast waves are completed) are given to each player for every game, double for healers. This value increases the more hp is healed, so taking as much damage as possible (without getting penalties, like for exploding eggs), is the most efficient way of getting points. A Good barbarian assault team in this sense will get more than 80 points on wave (7 if they're really good), 8 and 9. For a set of 10 waves 550-700 points are aquired (healers get the most points) by using this method, and a good team.Tortilliachp 05:08, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Gnome Stronghold Extended Course Edit

Im doing Gnome Stronghold Extended Course. My agility lvl is 87. I gained 350k xp and used 1/4 of my master horn. So i assume it will last about 1400k xp for the full master horn. I will update this after i used my full horn. ~ Michels 01:39, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

{C}I used my full master horn now. I went from level 87 to 90 agility and it did last for 1,321,400 xp. Keep in mind that the amount of xp that the horn last depends on your level. I think this should be cleared up in the article. ~ Michels 01:29, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Once mine's filled I'll use it on either mining or firemaking, and get exp rates for that. Then we can see if it's the same as agility. If you're correct about 1.4M (my 700K was just a guessed based on the time requirement), it would be completely worthwhile for training agility, and possibly mining. - Theta Zero

Im as heck as hoping so- I really don't want this to be....ehh...not worthwhile. I'm playing the game as I type - If I can I'll help figure out the rounds needed. I would assume It would be worthwhile, otherwise Jagex wouldn't bother? InMyOpinion 00:06, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

It might just be an alternative for training... y'know, to reduce boredom, since Agility, Mining, and Firemaking are all very monotonous skills to train. Personally, I don't like the idea of making skills easier to train. If the horn really does make these three skills faster, then I'll be disappointed.  Tien  00:09, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Yea, even though the thought of it makes me happy - I've been going for agility for a while. Doesn't exactly make me all fuzzy and proud of myself inside if agility becomes one of those "Fletching" skills where people get it because they want a 99 or as a trim cape... (Or to add to their collection of 99's)
So I'd say I'm 50/50, but with all these rebalances you'd really think Jagex is just making it easier...

InMyOpinion 00:14, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Okay I'm going to start a test to see how much exp I get from a full master horn.

Starting Level: 82 Agility (2.506.262 exp)

• Btw it took me 124 waves of B.A. to fully charge my horn from "Your horn is empty". Ended up with the full horn after the 4th wave following 12 queen kills. I used different roles each time so that may or may not have had an effect on how fast the horn charges. I will return after I have fully depleted my charges. I'm going to be using the Advanced Gnome Course the entire time. (using summer pies until 87 if I get there). I'll post pics of starting exp and end exp when I'm done. Bloody Rexx 01:22, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Wear it to charge? Edit

Do I have to wear my master horn for it too charge? 71.84.107.125 02:16, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

no.Tortilliachp 05:08, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

No. It can even be in your bank. I have tested it. 174.23.152.90 01:12, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

I was able to gain potential with the horn in the bank, so no, you definitely do not have to have it equipped.Anincent 10:43, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Can't say for certain, but it makes sense that it would charge as long as you have it. Since you can have only one, it may even charge while banked. Someone should test that out. - Theta Zero

As far as I know - It doesn't. I played using a rune defender the first few waves and I got a bit of potential. Im now clutching the horn in a death grip just in case it wont register - That would be horrible.

In My Opinion, I'd say unless you have a better shield that you must use - Equip the horn, until we figure it out, but I'm sure it doesnt!

InMyOpinion 00:09, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

That makes being an attacker the underpowered class for Exp. I'm not so sure Jagex would pull that. I believe it does have to be in your inventory, but not equipped. But that's my guess. - Theta Zero

I was gaining charges just by having it in my inv :P72.199.117.151 01:00, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

Does Level Matter, and how many POINTS would it take to fill? Edit

OK few things:

Does the level of your Agility/Mining/Firemaking effect the xp you get?

and Next: How many points would fill the horn completly, IF it is based on how many points you wouldve gotten?

I would think 1,000 just because its a round number, and the normal penance horn would be 500, but could someone somehow test that out? Or answer the question if you already know? Thanks =P

InMyOpinion 00:11, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

This could be tested quite throuroughly: have two people playing the same role. They neccessarily gain the same amount of points, and so one of the two gains points, the other gains exp potential. simply record the number of points taken to fill the horn, there may be a slight error due to the horn not needing all the points on the last wave completed to fill it. Tortilliachp 05:08, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

According to Michels post above:

" I used my full master horn now. I went from level 87 to 90 agility and it did last for 1,321,400 xp. Keep in mind that the amount of xp that the horn last depends on your level. I think this should be cleared up in the article. ~ Michels 01:29, January 22, 2010 (UTC)" The level of the skill you're training changes the amount of XP the master horn lasts for. I presume the higher your level, the longer it lasts, but if Michels could clarify which way it goes, that'd be great, thanks! UNWATCHABLE 09:56, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

You are obviously never penalized for having a higher level, thus making the experience increasing. Is there any situation in the game where xp decreases with increased level? With incrementally more xp needed to attain higher levels, lowering xp rates would be counter-productive, and bad game design. Tortilliachp 05:08, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Horn charge and use test Edit

Hi, so I went through around 2 sets of Barbarian Assault as a level 5 healer and got to the less than 1/4 remaining mark. I then used the full charge at the Gnome Advanced Agility Course and gained a total of 96595 experience. If you assume that the horn was 4/17 full, simple math suggests that I would receive 205264 extra experience if I had used a full charge. I am currently level 83 agility. KefkaticFanatic 22:06, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

I had nearly 1/3 when I did the Wilderness course and went from level 63 to 68. I received 235k experience; half of which was from the horn. Dsctatom 04:22, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

Firemaking? Edit

Does anyone know the ammount of firemaking experience you get from penance master horn/penance horn? Because ive been looking around for a while and I cant seem to find anything about how long the firemaking exp lasts.
Thanks for your help

Well, no one has done a test yet, simply because it is not worth it. It also depends on your level, and please sign your comments. Gerbung 04:21, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Would it not be incredibly efficient with use of firemaking brawlers?Tortilliachp 05:08, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

The completely full Penance master horn lasted me for approximately 3.6 million firemaking experience (From: 10,016,070 [96], To: 13,604,638 [99]) burning magic logs with the Flame gloves and Ring of fire, resulting in a yield of 1.75 million bonus XP from a full horn. It took me 109 waves to charge the horn with public BA, for a total time taken of perhaps eight hours to charge. Oblivion590 21:49, April 05, 2010 (UTC)

1% per wave? Edit

The article states that you earn 1% each wave and it's not variable. Does this include 10, the Queen wave? {C}Mamabear47 10:40, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

It's not 1% per wave. I had an empty horn and did wave 10 once and got some agility xp, did wave 1 once when it was empty again and got even less xp.\

I believe Wave 1 - 10 = 10% but not each wave is 1%. Like Wave 10 might be 3% and wave 9 2% etc... 138.130.65.38 20:01, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree that it's not based on exactly 1% every wave. so far I've completed 12 18 (i mean come on... still not done) waves all with my horn labelled "Almost Full". Doesn't really agree with the wave 'almost full' being 91/100 (9 waves to 100%). ## There, finally went up after 18 waves. not 9. 18. *Anger*

Agility experience with brawlers Edit

Can you apply the same principle with the horn as with the Agility Brawlers? As in, only equip the horn when doing the final obstacle that gives the bonus exp so that it will last longer?  DeeME  23:07, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

it's per experience point, so that wouldn't make much sense theoretically at least.. Tortilliachp 02:05, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

for the agility part this is whats in the ba manual on runescape manual. "Completing agility courses" so im thinking full laps around and not individual obstacles

the horn doesn't just work when equipped, it always doubles your exp while charged rida81 18:57, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

{C}That's wrong. With the addition of the exp button you can clearly see that you must be wielding the horn in order to get the bonus exp. So that would mean to maximise exp gain in agility you should only wear on the last obstacle. This will def get annoying after awhile seeing as how it apparantly lasts a *large* amount of exp when full. 67.81.28.81 03:45, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the horn lasts for a certain amount of experience (like, for example, 1.3m experience), not for a certain amount of actions (say, 13000 obstacles). This would mean it does not matter when or where you wear the horn, you will still end up with the same amount of bonus experience.60.240.242.167 09:50, July 5, 2010 (UTC)

Horn + Mastered skills Edit

Does the amount of mastered skills you have effect the amount of xp that the horn lasts for?

duno probz not

Does the horn degrade your brawlers faster Edit

I know that using sacred clay with brawlers makes then degrade twise as fast so it equals the same ending experience but I was wondering if the horn had the same effect.

99.36.7.19 00:25, August 5, 2010 (UTC)Tapehead2

Yes, it does.86.140.67.250 08:49, November 20, 2010 (UTC)

Timewise, no, neither degrades faster (this is also true of the horn and SC tools). Experience wise, both items will give you the same amount of bonus experience as they normally would have. The rate of degradation of any XP-boosting item is proportional to base XP gained, not total XP gained. 64.32.232.190 03:30, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Brimhaven Agility Dungeon?Edit

Does this and the normal penance horn double the XP you gain when you trade in your agility arena tickets? Possibly a stupid question but I can't find the Brimhaven Dungeon mentioned explicitly anywhere. Thanks 195.137.81.78 15:20, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Yes im pretty sure it does. -Oscar King4

Does horn charge degrade based on exp gained or # of tasks? Edit

The question we all have that is being tested. IMO the horn is not worth it until this is answered. If you were doing agility at the barbarian advanced course, would the horn lose as much charge on doubling the exp on the rope swing as it would at the end?

Losing charge based on exp-Use horn entire way.

Losing charge based on # of tasks-Use horn only at end instead of start where you gain more exp/charge.

Until it is confirmed, which would you choose? I also don't think it's worth it b/c the ending lap bonus isn't doubled. I think the only answer to this (besides spending all our time testing it like above) is to ask at Jagex's QA session, or post on the forums asking them to officially confirm how the horn loses it's charge, or maybe if anyones going to Runefest, try to ask.

-XAgileWolfX