# Talk:Magic Damage

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This talk page is for discussing Magic Damage.

## Issues with stackingEdit

Do potion and equipment boosts simply add (10% staff and 15% potion giving 25%) or do you get compounded multiplication: (10% stafff and 15% potion giving 1.10*1.15= 126.5 so 26.5%)

As far as i am aware all boosts are as a percentage of your base level. ie 25% in above example.

Which is applied first chaos gauntlets +30 or percent boost. This will affect whether the +30 is boosted too.

Which is applied first Charge's +100 or percent boost. This will affect whether the +100 is boosted too.

Assumptions have been made in the article, but without knowing the rules the max hit calculator is more speculative than factual.

"the max hit calculator is more speculative than factual" is not true, only a few of these have such bonuses, so only they are speculative. Most of these are factual. D Boots R Us 20:53, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

its speculative because we do not know the exact max hit formula, we can only go off of what we have been told and experienced for ourselves. We should make that a policy. 21:09, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

There is a fault in our calculation assumptions. The calculator finds a max hit on Fire surge on an Ice strykewyrm with the Staff of light, Arcane stream necklace, Full slayer helm, and Fire cape equipped, after drinking Overload potion to be:

((280)*(100%+15%+15%+15%+21%)*2)+40 = 969.6 i.e. 969

however evidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98EBOmS5MSQ shows it to be 1106 or more.

• Maybe the leech magic prayer had an affect.
• Maybe the slayer helm is applied after the other damage boosting items/ potions giving:

((280)*(100%+15%+15%+21%)*(100%+15%)*2)+40 = 1012.44 i.e. 1012 this still doesnt explain a hit of 1106.

• Or maybe the potion boost is applied after the other damage boosting items giving:

((280)*(100%+15%+15%+15%)*(100%+21%)*2)+40 = 1022.52 i.e. 1022 this won't explain 1106

• Applying visible stat % boosts then potion boosts then slayer helm gives:

((280)*(100%+15%+15%)*(100%+15%)*(100%+21%)*2)+40 = 1053.012 ... this won't explain 1106

Further evidence:

Player hitting 43 with Fire surge, 10% staff, castle wars 20% brace, 21% potion boost assumed. This is from before lifpoint/ dungeoneering updates:

current formula states 28*(100%+10%+20%+21%) = 42.28 i.e. 42.

Same video CW miasmic barrage 10% staff, CW brace hits 49. Our formula says max of 48.32 (unsigned)

Before the lifepoints update, it was possible to hit one above your max by hitting decimals. For instance with miasmic barrage say you hit a 23.82, it would show as a 23. Then next if you hit a 48.12+, it would show as 49.

As for the ice strykewyrm one, where are we getting the figures for how much damage the fire cape adds and how much damage is gained by using fire magic against them? Aren't these player-made up? If I recall right, Jagex only said you'd hit higher, not how much.

I just want to add in here that I've been using fire bolts for slayer taining lately and although the calc says my max hit with fire bolt is 187 with ancient staff, full slayer helm and chaos gaunts, however in practice I've been maxing out at 192. Since I'm too lazy to do the math, does this shed any light on the stacking problems?

Full Slayer Helm/Hex Crest stacks multiplicatively, not additatively, with the other bonuses. 71.87.196.171 17:45, July 14, 2010 (UTC)

OK that's a good suggestion, very plausible. Do you have any evidence to back this up, If so please could you post it here.
Also this won't explain the Ice Strykerwyrm example.
If we apply this to the example above: (Fire strike (120)+chaos gauntlets (30)) * Ancient Staff (1.10) * Hexcrest (1.15)
= 150*1.1*1.15= 189.75 which still doesn't add up to 192 :( De jour 20:06, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
I agree i am hitting 254s with full slayer helm and blast necklace with firewave this multiplies out to (200 * 1.15(hexcrest) *1.1(blast necklace)=253, but i may be hittin just 1 higher because of decimal addition Amending: a few second after i posted this i hit a 256... more research is required...

Lets apply the Saftzie/ Gaz Lloyd formula:

{(Fire Surge*Equipment bonus*slayer helm bonus of 7/6)+fire spell bonus} *doubling fire cape bonus
{[280*(1+0.15+0.15)*1.16666666*1.21]+40}*2 = 1107.69
round down => 1107
this explains a max hit of 1106 as it is probable that the exact max of 1107 wasn't achieved.
81.151.245.95 10:23, October 5, 2011 (UTC)
My belief is that everything is rounded down before the +40 and *2 modifiers are calculated. That would make it (513+40)*2, or 1106. It's Cook's afterbirth day! 21:25, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

## Development of calculatorEdit

I can help if you want. 13:08, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
That would be really good of you... I copied the code from a smithing calc by 'the last username left' but couldn't find the calculation bit of the code. It might be a good idea to make it easy to edit the formula too, I'm not completely sure the order we think the boosts are applied in is correct.--De jour 19:30, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

There we go. I put it where the one was above. I didn't have time to add validation to it today, so regardless of input you will always get a value, even if its not actually possible - e.g. staff of light + god spells, castlewar brace+slayer helms, etc etc. I'll add that tomorrow. For now, the calculation code is here, the developer's manual for the calc script is here, and the wikiguild that maintains these calculators (and most other calculators on the wiki is here. 22:58, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

Update: recent evidence has disproved our previous understanding of how stacking works so calculator is not ready for publication. De jour 20:25, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the ice strykerwyrms bit from the calculator, all the code is still present, it's just been bracketed off so that it has no effect.De jour 21:16, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

## Leech magicEdit

Does this prayer affect your magic level?

if so will the affect be stacked with other boosts, and will it also give 3% extra damage per level?

Having researched it I'm pretty sure it doesn't affect your magic level or magic damage.--De jour 23:14, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

## Snare, Entangle, VengeanceEdit

Snare damages up to 20, entangle up to 50, and vengeance also deals damage. Should these spells be added to the tables? If so what effect (if any) do boosts have on them?

I know vengeance is unaffected, and I'm 99% sure snare and entangle (and isn't there a third one?) are affected. Go ahead and add themD Boots R Us 16:34, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Yes there is a 3rd one: bind. However, it doesn't damage, it doesn't even hitsplat a zero, it just hold the opponent for 5 seconds. De jour 16:41, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

You put in the article they aren't affected, are you sure? Did you try them?

No I'm not sure and no I didn't try them, but 99% sure... thats like 1% uncertainty right De jour 17:31, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

I said I was 99% sure they were affected, not not affected. Think about it, they do damage, and that damage has the normals range of 1-max (30/50) so, so that max should be able to be boosted. The only reason I exclude vengeance and the spells that hit the same amount every time is that vengeance is calculated based on what the person was hit, so it's not a range, and the other hits (strikes on salarin) don't have a range either. I think any spell that hits within a range can be boosted. D Boots R Us 17:35, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

OK I just tested them over 100 times using void knight mace, arcane blast necklace, wmb, equipment with +85 magic attack bonus and mystic might prayer with a lvl 83 magic account, but never hit above the standard max hits of 20 and 50. This is pretty good evidence. If anyone does ever manage to boost their max hit please post here. De jour 15:44, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

## Ice strykewyrms and Salarin the TwistedEdit

Ice strykewyrms are a slayer monster that are vulnerable to fire spells while wearing a fire cape, possibly up to a massive max hit of 1090.

On Salarin the twisted:

Wind Strike always hits 90 Water Strike always hits 100 Earth Strike always hits 110 Fire Strike always hits 120

however the hits are not affected Magic Damage:+x% stat of staves magic potions and the Arcane stream necklace may or may not work, either way wind strike's max hit is affected. De jour 16:40, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

## Void SetEdit

Quote: 'Also a full set of void knight armor will raise your max hit by 10%'

Response look at http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Void_Knight_equipment it states 'Magic- Despite being ridiculed for its lack of a damage bonus, the void magic set is the only magic armour to feature a good ranged defence, and at high/maximum magic levels can potentially reach similar accuracy to Ahrim's armour. The downside to this is a mage must be high level in their magic, and need to reach a high magic bonus to make up for the accuracy lost from the robe slots.'
only accuracy is boosted, not max hit, so I'm removing this from the page.
The staff gives you a +10% damage increase, so they must have not known that :P 03:34, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
The Void Knight Mace does not count as a Void item for completing the set. Only the helmet, robe top, robe legs, gloves and deflector count as Void items for this purpose, therefore a complete Void Knight Mage set would not give a damage boost. 79.71.105.164 14:13, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

## Order of spells Edit

How should they go? I put in ancients as a group after normals as a group, although that was because normals were already there and I was adding onto it. Should it be by level? By basic max? By boosted max? Or is in groups good with everyone? I like it divided by spellbooks and types of spells because it looks neater than it would if they were mixed by, say, level. Where should I put in snare/entangle?

If similar spells are grouped together, then they can share a row in the two left hand collumns, and its a bit neater.

If you give every column the same number of rows, the table could be made sortable.

I want the table to be sortable, how do I do this? D Boots R Us 20:00, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

## Burst and Barrage spells Edit

Should it say next to the boosted max hit what the combined max hit would be if it were able to max on 9 targets with one hit? Like I explained at the top of the Max Hits section, this would be impossible, but it is the max. What's the consensus?

I don't think you can add the 9 hits up and call that 1 hit. Personally I feel max hit and max total damage are different things.--De jour 17:21, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

K then I won't D Boots R Us 17:26, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

## Max hit with Fire Surge Edit

Heres a pic of me hitting over the max hit that RSWiki says.

[1]--Rozkipz 14:33, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your contribution. We are currently gathering data and working to fix the calculator. Please could you list the circumstances (i.e. Hexcerst, Wolpentinger etc.) that applied to your hit of 534

De jour 19:18, August 5, 2010 (UTC)

## Magic DartEdit

RSWiki says my max with it is 316, when i tried it myself i hit 329, full slayer helm, 91 magic, staff of light, ferocious ring, arcane stream necklace no other boosts used.212.219.49.2 13:38, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

I'd be willing to assume that's your Fero kicking in, but it's quite possible we're wrong again. Thanks ^^ 03:35, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

## More evidence (Fire Wave) Edit

Staff of light, arcane blast necklage: My max hit was 250. formula says 200*(1+0.15+0.1) = 250

Staff of light, arcane blast necklage, magic potion giving +5 boost (15% bonus): My max hit was 250. formula says 200*(1+0.15+0.1+0.15) = 280 result 287

Possible explanation: potion boost applied seperately: 200*(1+0.15+0.1)*1.15 = 287.5, rounds down to 287.De jour 23:40, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

## We must spade out the correct formulaEdit

This talk page is full of people complaining that our Magic damage formula is incorrect. I've just hit higher with Ice Barrage than I should be able to with the setup I had (a total of 63% bonus damage from a staff of light, arcane stream necklace, hexcrest, and the boost from a Vecna skull); my theoretical max hit is 489 but I hit 514. For our damage formula to be off by this much of a margin is unacceptable. Therefore, I am calling for the wiki to figure out just exactly how Magic damage is calculated.

I don't know how this is going to be done. I haven't had any good ideas on how to compile data for Magic damage and derive a formula from it. But this needs to be done. Let's get on it. --Andorin (Talk) (Contribs) 02:26, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

Using only the data above, I think I get a decent estimate using something like

$(base + chaos\ gauntlet\ boost + \epsilon) \times \prod (%\ boosts) + (ferocious\ ring\ boost)$

For your example, with three 15% boosts from equipment and an 18% boost from the magic levels raised by the Vecna (ignoring $\epsilon$ for now),

$300 \times 1.15^3 \times 1.18 = 538$

However, one thought I had, before the life points update, was that Jagex always rounded fractional parts down, but increased the base damage by a fractional amount to compensate (and applied the concept to melee and ranged, too). In other words, if a spell had a max hit of $30$, they would really use a value of $30 + \epsilon$, for some small value $\epsilon$, where $\epsilon < 1$. It's possible that $\epsilon$ is now a small integer, $\epsilon < 10$. The reason to add the small amount to the base has to do with making the randomly chosen values maximize at the stated maximum. That is, if you generate a uniform random number $x$, such that

$0 \leq x < 1$

then multiply by the desired maximum number, say 30, and round down to the nearest integer, you'll never get a 30. On the other hand, if you multiply by, say 30.9, and round down, you'll get 30 about as often as any other integer. So, temporarily, the internal result is larger than the maximum value. Since the final rounding doesn't take place until the end, the intermediate value that gets boosted can also start out to be larger than the maximum.
On the basis of practically nothing, I'd bet that the life points update just displays the fractions that the game carried around internally, anyway, and involved few, if any, other code changes. If so, $\epsilon$ didn't go away. It became small integer, possibly as large as 9. (Even more believable to me is that it always was a small integer and that the life points update basically amounted to stopping dividing by 10.) It would be interesting to see if, using absolutely no boosts whatsoever, it was possible to hit higher than the stated maximums. (Even if not, it could just mean that $\epsilon = 1$.)
What a fire cape does to boost the damage of fire spells on an ice strykewyrm should be considered a special case, because there isn't any Jagex-documented boost other than "higher," as far as I know.
As for how to collect data to analyze, it's going to be pretty messy with multiple people contributing. People should collect data with and without each piece of equipment available to them and with and without potion boosts, all in some tabular form rather than the anecdotal form predominant on this page. Then realize that what each person reports isn't necessarily the maximum, but some lower value, or could be a typographical or other error. I would suggest that individual contributors keep their data on a page under their user pages. It keeps people from stepping on other people's data. Or you could organize it kind of like MyFace with individual contributors each having a page underneath someone else's user page. -- 10:56, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

## Send for our free catalog! Edit

It's likely that each item was added (and therefore coded) on a case-by-case basis. So it seems to me that rather than one or two formulas, we're possibly talking about something closer to a unique formula for each combination of items. (Remember the questions about skill levels and items worn for Managing Miscellania?) Let's hope this is not as complicated as all that, but it could be. What catalog of items and maybe combinations do we want to ask people to start with? What tells us the most about the formulas with the least tries and item-switching? Do we need items worn or other screenshots as proof of numbers? -- PIKWIT 22:06, August 18, 2011 (UTC)

## FormulaEdit

After conducting some tests with my lab rat, our formula is:

$(base + chaos\ gauntlet\ boost + \epsilon) \times (%\ level\ boost) \times (%\ staff\ and\ necklace\ boosts) \times (%\ hexcrest\ boost) + (ferocious\ ring\ boost)$ This is based on the following observations:

Equipment bonuses are multiplied with level bonuses
Staff and necklace bonuses are additive
Chaos gauntlets are added before multiplication
• Gaz tested Fire Bolt with Overloads and Chaos gauntlets against Gargoyles in Kuradal's Dungeon.
• If the gauntlets were added before multiplication, the max hit would have been 175. If they were added after, it would have been 181. Observed hit of 180 shows that the +30 is added before multiplication.
Full slayer helm magic damage bonus is actually 16.66%
• Gaz tested Fire Surge with Full slayer helm against Gargoyles in Kuradal's Dungeon.
• If the bonus was 15%, the max hit would have been 322. If it was 16.66%, it would be 326. Observed hit of 324 shows that 15% is incorrect.
• 7/6 is the same observed bonus for Ranged and Melee with the Full slayer helm, instead of the stated 15%.
Full slayer helm bonus is separate and multiplicative

What's left to find out is the effect of multi-targeted spells, and the effect of the Castlewars brace and the Celestial surgebox/Magical blastbox. It's Cook's afterbirth day! 03:16, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

Also fire cape against ice strykewyrms. I have enough slayer points to be able to skip tasks until I get an ice strykewyrm task, if needs be. 13:28, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

More Evidence

Spell: Fire Wave Max 200
Equipment: Staff of light, Arcane stream necklace 30% boost
Potion: magic potion (at various stages of decline back down to my base level) (9% to 0%)
Other special boosts: N/A

Results (note special highlighted max hit appeared for all hits listed, but no others)

 Mage Level Damage Formula 95/90 94/90 (Max hit not achieved) (Max hit not achieved) 200*1.30*1.15 = 299 200*1.30*1.12 = 291.2 93/90 283 200*1.30*1.09 = 283.4 92/90 275 200*1.30*1.06 = 275.6 91/90 267 200*1.30*1.03 = 267.8 90/90 260 200*1.30*1.00 = 260

Evidence looks to fit the formula above quite well with max hit being rounded down to the nearest whole number. --De jour 23:55, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

Based on my own observations in the field, I tend to agree with the $(base + chaos\ gauntlet\ boost + \epsilon) \times (%\ level\ boost) \times (%\ staff\ and\ necklace\ boosts) \times (%\ hexcrest\ boost) + (ferocious\ ring\ boost)$formula. Rather than just adding equipment, headgear, and potion percentage boosts together (and adding gauntlet/fero boosts) and then multiplying by the spell's base max, multiplying those boosts after one another seems to be more accurate for determining boosted max hits. Should we edit the table to show this, rather than the current cumulative display of boost percentage? --Alexcthgreat 05:57, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

## multi target magic damage Edit

Magic damage bonus only applies to the central target when using area of effect spells such as ice barrage. This is not mentioned in the article.

## 4995 damage Edit

I don't think any of the monsters in kuradal's dungeon are small enough to allow hitting 9 of them with a single spell. Maybe if you can break their blocks and have them stand on top of each other, but if that's possible 9 might not even be the limit. 19:35, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

I think the fact that kuradals is single way combat may prove more of a problem mate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.106.44.100 (talk) on 04:02, 23 June 2012 (UTC).

## Dominion marker Edit

They do give magic level boosts, including the highest in-game. Can someone add them? I don't know how :/