Talk: Gods

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Fifth Age Religion

I think that the Dual arena should be considered Saradomin, as it has a Saradomin altar... Italay90 (talk) 22:41, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

It's only got the Saradomin altar because:

1. There's a Saradominist monk standing right next to it and
2. Saradominism is one of the most widespread religions in gielinor.

So it makes sense that there's a Saradomin Altar there, but it doesn't necessarily make it Saradominist land.   Draconis E ^Talk 11:29, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

It is Saradominist. There are people from the Abbey of St Elspeth there and Hamid comes from the Monastery of Saradomin. The excavators are Saradominist too, presumably. Fswe1 15:03, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

The Arena itself is property of Al Kharid, not many people there actually share their religions, but I don't think individual religions are relevant, I mean there are Zamorakians in Varrock and Lumbridge as well. While the hospital is Saradominist though, and indeed an extension of the Abbey, the rest of the arena is probably the same as whatever the rest of Al Kharid is. ^T_H^A_R^K_O^N 04:30, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree with Tharkon, the dual arena is littered with Hettian references, only the hospital seem Saradominist - and that is likely a new addition. The site itself is Hettian. The digsite exam center is also not considered Zarosian, only because Senntisten is underneath it and Dr. Nabinik walks around there. I think the same thing is the case in Al-Kharid's Duel arena. . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 08:20, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Godtiers - also avatars?

Fswe1 seems to think not (because it's mentioned in the trivia section and they are not actually, officially called gods), while I am of the opinion it should. This is because Avatars are repeatedly and explicitly mentioned several times, in different sources by different Jagex (Lore) Mods to be on that tier, alongside of the gods. Different in power, but still on the same tier. The explicit mention of them being weaker than desert gods is similar to the mention that gods within one tier are not of exact strength/power, and that even a god of a lower tier could defeat a god of a higher tier. Also notice the tier (#7) is called: honourary mention, facets of gods, reflections of gods... and that they are not gods in their own right. If this is accepted to be the case for both avatars and e.g. Apmeken, then I see no reason to include Apmeken and not include the Avatar of creation. These desert gods are also said to be only able to do things that Tumeken assign them to do: a similar role as avatars. I see no significant difference, and no reason to not place them in the same tier (like Jagex did). Go ahead, change my mind ;)  . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . .  08:15, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

They are in the same tier. They're just not gods. And this is an article about gods. Them being in tier 7 is trivially mentioned here an explicitly mentioned on their own articles. Done. (note that they are mentioned as being in tier 7, but left out for the reason I just stated)  Fswe1  08:17, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

@Fswe1: As I said, Apmeken also isn't a full god in her own right - just like the avatars. Oh, btw, saying "Done." is a terrible reason for me to follow... . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 08:27, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

If they are in any tier then it means they are a God/Goddess of some sort.  Draconis E ^Talk  08:20, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

No. They contain divine energy but are no god. Of no sort. Mod Osborne was quite clear on that.  Fswe1  08:23, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, source please, because else it has no bearing.. as you could've seen, I have my citations for them being stated as tier 7, included as gods. If you talk about them heaving devine energy... that's a pooer reason. Mod Osborne also said that Magic, devine magic, elder artefact enregy, etc. all originates from the Elder gods. So if I cast a spell... it's a bit of devine energy. They are listed as tier seven, why not place them on tier seven too??  . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 08:27, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

I also saw one Jmod state that The menaphite Gods in tier 7 are just as good as/equal to Avatars and they are considered Gods as well as worshipped. Draconis E ^Talk 08:25, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Well maybe not worshipped as such (the Avatars, maybe Bandos' avatar is though... we dunno), but worship is not the divining characteristic... their tier is... why else make the tier system??  . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . .   08:27, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, Edam, not Osborne. [1] Anyway, the fact that they are avatars created by gods means they aren't gods in their own rights. Except for Het, Scabaras, Crondis and Apmeken, who are considered demi-gods due to the desert lore. Fswe1 08:31, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

All tiers of Gods excercise Godly magic so they are a type of God!!! < That just proves it all. i.e You can't use God magic if you're not a God...

If I take a picture of a cat, would it be considered a cat? Fswe1 08:38, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

............... Draconis E ^Talk 08:39, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

You're just being ridiculous about that cat, that's not what we're arguing. If you read your source correctly... in fact, let me quote it.

“	Just to clarify there's 7 tiers to godhood, with tier 7 (the lowest tier) being powerful avatars who are not strictly gods in their own right. So Apmeken and Crondis etc are on this tier (being made from/are part of Tumeken)	”
	— Mod Edam [2]

As you can see, he gave that justification, not for the avatars but for the entire tier (this is obviously, including the desert gods). If that is not enough for you... have you heard of Tumeken's Dream?? It's well known to those interested, that Tumeken gave them some divine power... he made them, and they are not gods in their own right... oh wait, Mod Edam also said that. So yes... these desert gods are in fact merely a picture of the original cat (Tumeken). This would make us require to also remove those gods... in fact the whole tier... but you still agree with Mod Edam's justification. Somewhere, in your reasoning, something goes not right. I think I gave you more than enough hints to show you where that is. . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 08:46, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

The four desert gods Tumeken created are an exception; they are considered gods. The avatars aren't. And I think the cat analogy is quite accurate. Fswe1 08:48, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Again, please source that they are stated as an exception, otherwise I'm forced to think they are still not different - in principle - as the avatars... Btw, I think your cat analogy is perfect too... the four desert gds are mere pictures. If you disagree... please, come with a source. It's a tedious and slow process to fidn the source, but I too came with them. Anyway way, also remember it's easy to persuade me -  think of the god letters talk we had? . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 08:56, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

They are sentient beings with a duty in the desert, unlike the avatars, which are, unsurprisingly, avatars (i.e. controlled by gods). Fswe1 09:01, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed: those four desert gods are sentient (but the avatars too, as is evidence by their reactions). The avatars have (had) duties too they've had quests (TCC and NR & SW) and minigames (sw again) to demonstrate that. . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 09:12, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

The Desert demi-gods are stated to be gods in the actual game, and they are worshipped as gods, as opposed to say, the Bandos Avatar, which was just the puppet of Bandos, or the Soul Wars avatars, which are just killed over and over again. Wahisietel (Talk) 09:23, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Not quote, tier 6 is demigods, it has Itcthlarin and Amascut, but Apeken, Het, Scarabas and Crondis are on tier 7... they aren't quite demigods yet. And as of their strength... yes, I agree... that's a bit odd. But not that important/relevant to the tier system, it's in the sources I gave too. . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 09:26, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Never said their power was relevant, it's just characters actually treat the desert demi-gods (and yes, they can be considered Demi-gods, although Icthlarin and Amascut are obviously more powerful) as deities, and as such worship them. That said, actually looking at the discussion, the avatars should be on the tier table, yeah, as while they are not actually gods, they are still on the godhood tier thingy. Wahisietel (Talk) 09:45, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

I know you didn't, but I was just making it clear that that shouldn't be a reason to not-include them on tier 7. I agree that it feels more 'natural' callign them demigods too, but since Mod Edam dubbed tier 7 demigods, I don't see why we shouldnn't call it that.  . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 09:48, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

So, as I can see, this is about the adding Bandos Avatar, and the other Avatars to this section for tier 7? Well, It does seem like a fine idea, but then again, only Bandos avatar, as I see, should be placed in this, Bandos is a god and worshiped, his avatar was shown that would be worshiped by even his followers (Goblins for example.) So, Adding him to the Tier Seven would be a good idea. Now, Adding the Sw avatars, because they are also stated to have Tier 7 powers, well, maybe, lets see the considerations. The Sw Avatars are needed 100 Slayer points to kill and make a damage, and needs (as it seems) Souls to weaken it. Bandos Avatar, cannot be killed unless made an item (like the crossbow) To be able to kill the avatar(The power within the amulet) Showing Bandos Avatar to be stronger. The Sw avatar for me, doesn't seem to have a place in the table, they seem at the weakest of the tier 7, but Bandos Avatar or we could call it (gods' Avatar) Which ever comes to mind for you all. I believe it should be stated in the tablet, this is a Table system for Godhood Tier, Any information needed to add, should be placed. Even if their not worshiped, but are in the tier, they should be added. Adventurerrr ^Talk 15:47, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I can see why it might make sense to you... but that was not the point. Jagex put them on the tier, so why not add them to the tier? Because they don't share the name of a god? Or because we don't know something similar for the other avatars? I don't think that's the correct answer when Jagex explicitly and repeatedly placed them on the same tier and breath as e.g. Apmeken. And basically, it comes down to: they are the weakest of the tier, so they shouldn't be on the tier. That's not a good reason I think, maybe we will find out that elder goddess Ful he weakest of the elder gods... should we not include her on tier 1 then (not include her at all?)? Sure, strength is important, but that's already represented in the tiers themselves. . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 16:27, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

I am not saying not to put them, it does seem like a good Idea to, I never said anything that we shouldn't, I am only saying my opinion, I agree with you, Ful is an elder god, So she's in tier one, I am not saying the weakest shouldn't be included. I just don't see the avatars are that important, but you are right, they should be added. As I stated; "Any information needed to add, should be placed. Even if their not worshiped, but are in the tier, they should be added." So they should be added, I think only Bandos Avatar, but due to the avatar in sw being in the tier of the gods, they are known as godly powerful creature, just weaker then anyone above them. So that is information, we the wiki, are hoping to have for those who wish information from us. Any information that is proven, yes let's give it in. But then again this is a Gods' page, and their no known as Gods by anyone. So this confuses me the most, but again, more important is information for the Wiki readers. Adventurerrr ^Talk 16:52, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this is the page about the gods... but the god tiers are very linked to what makes a god... infact it's so linked to it, that I would call it the defining characeristic. I can't think of a better way to decide what makes a god. It's just a lot moe specific. Before we only know Zaros was strong... stronger than Saradomin, we now know more definitively. Same goes for other gods, like Armadyl.... it's just more informative that way. Btw, we don't know if the avatars of creation and destruction are weaker than Bandos' avatar or not. They might even be stronger. We do know the four desert gods are stronger than the avatars though (and that information has been given too).  . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 17:06, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

By all means, Add that information is for all I care, they are labeled in the tier, again, it is information we should add. Adventurerrr ^Talk 14:25, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Haha, I was just going to say the following, then I noticed you edited just before I did: I assume it's safe to say that we have reached an agreement. I will wait a bit, to be sure, and after that I shall update the article. Btw... thanks for the responses ;) . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 14:29, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

I been agreeing to add it in my first post, you just weren't really following it, but yeah, I don't really see why not, their labled in the tier, their best off stated. Adventurerrr ^Talk 14:32, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Why the hell would you add the Avatars to the list of gods. I supported having them on the god tier thing, but they should definitely not be on the list of gods, as they are very much not gods. Wahisietel (Talk) 10:43, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

Especially since the Bandos Avatar IS just the Goblin High Priest imbued with the energy of Bandos. Bandos controlled it completely, it was just a puppet, so we're essentially listing the same god twice. -- Wahisietel (Talk) 10:46, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, well, it seemed to me that everyone basically agreed in the end. Fswe1 didn't oppose anymore, Draconis expressed his agreement, Luciz was clear about his agreement too. I thought you agreed with us too, (in essence, in your second post), or at the very least did not oppose it the addition. I don't think I didn't wait long enough to add it, I even announced to add it in advance as well. And recently, they re-re-reconfirmed it here again. Mod Osborne stressed the point they are not actual gods at all, but demigods at most and... well basically what I mentioned in the list/table. I really don't see any problem with it. . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 11:31, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Wahi. Having them in the tier table is one thing, listing them as gods is just wrong. In fact, their names state that they aren't gods (keyword: avatar). Fswe1 12:16, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

By that logic Amascut should also not be listed, keword: devourer not god. Additionally, neither should brassica prime, Latin keyword: cabbage. Neither Zaros, keyword: no 'god' in the name. The entire tier should not be mentioned, or you're having a different definition, which you should share. . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 12:38, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

I only agreed in adding them in the avatar table. Though, as gods, that's a question worth asking. "Are they gods, even if avatars?" Fact is Bandos avatar IS BANDOS so why add him, when it's the same god just in some pure energy state? But now, the two avatar, they are different, we don't even know if they are refereed as gods in the eyes on the mods. Only worth the table they are, not adding in the list. Adventurerrr ^Talk 12:41, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

Oh and also, lets stop this Leon, you're starting to act like a smarty pants, well, everyone in the wiki is. But anyway, there is not enough information, of a mod, that they are seen as gods in their eyes, their in the tier beause their that powerful enough to be listed as one, again, Bandos Avatar is Bandos, and their is no different besides the power, and looks. But the Avatars, their a different story. No followers, no one worshiping them, their just created creatures from Nomad, for "power" if I am correct. So adding the SW Avatarts, was worthless. Now adding the Bandos Avatar, same thing, worthless, as it's also bandos. Adventurerrr ^Talk 12:48, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

If "Bandos avatar = Bandos" (which seems, indeed, very intuitively obvious), I assume this would make "Avatar of Creation + Avatar of Destruction = unnamed god/Nomad's soul collection" as well as "Crondis + Het +Apmeken + Scarabas = Tumeken" (as they are all facettes of Tumeken, whereas Icthlarin, Amascut are actual demigods and Elidnes is even more special) - right?? Because else, you need to explain to me how they are/aren't relevant/different form the avatars. . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 12:55, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

There you go again, "Smarty Pants." Now, Good speculation, but no proof at all, nope none, what so ever, lifted to be proved. Now, the gods you listed, their stated to be gods by the mods. Now, how are they different from a god, yes um ah................................................................................ OH RIGHT! Their made from a god, and not from souls that given them enough power to be in their tier. Again, good speculation, seems in order, could happen if the mods wish to make it. BUT again, no information, we can't speculate, we aren't a crystal ball, am I right? course I am, we picked never to speculate. Now, Leon. I know you will continue in this because you are filled with a mind of questions, wanting answers. Trust me I am to, but, as I said, we need further information of proof. Now come along, use your reasoning and stop, because it's worthless adding Avatars, and speculating that their like the other tier 7 gods, but they aren't, it was stated their weaker then the gods who are in tier 7. So lets stop. It woud be useless to go on Leon, I am not gonig against you, just telling you this is useless to talk about when facts are stated, and still need information for proof. Adventurerrr ^Talk 13:16, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

You know I'm perfectly fine saying we don't know things, so surely you know there must be a different point besides me being stubborn and curious. In fact, the whole point of this, for me, is that I am argueing/reasoning.... I hope you conside that. I contest the part of your text I italic-ed. When both where are full power, Zaros was confirmed to be weaker than Guthix, yet he isn't tier 3 and a half or anything odd like that. he's still on the same tier. So power (both in relative and absoulte terms) within a tier says nothing, especially see the point Mod Edam maded (see his quote in the article). To continue: we do know that Avatars and those desert gods are set on the same tier - just like Zaros and Guthix. We know gods are nothing but powerful beings, nearly all were mortal once and all can be killed. Tier 7 in its entirety is called reflections/factions of gods. They confirmed that the Dragonkin grow stronger after each false usage of the Stone; that the Mahjarat grow stronger after each Ritual; that both these two may achieve the power of the gods. All this together makes me not really doubt the idea that power levels maketh the god, nothing else (not intelect+power, because see Tuska; not morality+power, because see Bandos; not birth+power, because none are born gods; not followers+power, because see Skargaroth; nothing but just power counts). Since nothing but power counts, we can only say that the avatars are weaker than the desert gods. Btw the definition of an Avatar: "A manifestation of a deity in bodily form on earth." this makes it a very blurry line with the desert gods if you ask me (go read Tumeken's dream if you want, to me it's clear). What is not clear to me, is the reason why we should add them in the table but not in the list. Arguments ahve been made and accepted to add them to the table. Additional arguments should be made to justify why they should not be added to the list. A similar thing has been done with characters that aren't gods but are still listed (e.g. Lucien, Bob the cat, Iban); this is fine and I agree with those, but nothing has been argued for this distenction besides: although they are listed as gods of the same tier, they are called different and slightly weaker than other on the tier. And for Wahisietel below here, if being on a godhood tier does not make you a god, then: a) what does make you one, and b) what is the use of the tier-system if it (apparently) says nothing about godhood, and c) why do you think that this whole tier-system (used to define a god by its powers) does not qualify as Jagex calling them gods (at least in some way)?  . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 11:11, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

The difference between the desert demi-gods and the the avatars is that the desert demi-gods are actually stated to be gods, whereas the avatars have NEVER been called gods. Having a godhood tier does not necessarily make you a god. Wahisietel (Talk) 14:37, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

What I said, but in a more boring way. No offense if meant any. Adventurerrr ^Talk 14:45, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

So, are we going to keep their name? The avatar? In the list of gods? OR keep it removed from the list of them being gods? Well, I can see, it's remove, but keep in table, so talk if any more disagreeing. Adventurerrr ^Talk 01:10, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

I'm slightly worried I could be causing trouble by bringing this up, but I'm curious and hoping someone has some answers... So with the fact in mind that tier 7 gods cannot be more powerful than the process that created them, why are the Avatars of Creation and Destruction in tier 7 of godhood? These two Avatars were created by a mortal, Nomad. So in order for this to work, Nomad would have had to use a force more powerful than himself to essentially create gods, otherwise he himself would be a god. Am I wrong on this? Saint Arson (talk) 23:48, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly: "t tier 7 gods cannot be more powerful than the process that created them" the Nomad collected a lot of souls, and I mean... a WHOLE lot of souls.. so maybe the sheer number of souls is something that's soo powerful that this made the avatars so powerful. The use of the souls to craft/made/create the avatars is so powerful that this si what made it possible.

Also note that the Nomad wanted to use this energy source to get stronger himself too (perhaps even become a god). He used to work for Lucien, who might well have wanted that energy to help him accent... I think Luient was betting on multiple horses to play it save :3  . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 11:52, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

Goodness gracious. You're ALL missing the point. He said 'avatars' in the sense of 'a manifestation of a deity', NOT referring specifically to the various characters ingame with the word 'avatar' in their title (Avatar of Creastion, Clan avatar, Arzinian avatar, etc.). They are referred to as avatars, but this is not the sense he was referring to.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.163.8.188 (talk) on 19:36, December 10, 2013.

I believe he specifically called out the avatars of creation and destruction as example. But I might be misremembering that. ^T_H^A_R^K_O^N 04:18, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

The Naragi god...

I guess Mod Osborne confirmed an assumption without knowing it, check from 1:42:08 to 1:42:16: "Did the Nagari practice divination with their own dead god? Uhm... No. The god died too quickly... for that too happen.": source. So what do you guys think? :P . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 17:31, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

I guess they had a god before that? Lol, if you mean add a new god for this, I suppose, does seem they had a god. Adventurerrr ^Talk 17:35, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Osborne is just failing again. The whole point of the Naragi is that they didn't have any gods before Saradomin showed up and screwed things up. Wahisietel (Talk) 10:41, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

Unless he's referring to one of the gods that arrived after Saradomin. "This looks to be the remains of a ruined temple. Some of Guthix's race must have begun to worship the gods who came to this world, creating shrines and temple become becoming caught up in the war that destroyed them.". Either way, not enough to make an article or section on. It's implied many gods died in the Gielinor God Wars, but we don't make articles on them, do we? Wahisietel (Talk) 11:09, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

I think he might have been mistaking too... when you go to the history of this page, you can see I wrote something on this god. I included that it could be About the second part... I would like to note that we already say there are as many as around 20 gods, although we don't make pages for them we do mention them here. So similarly, the gods that died in the Gielinorian God Wars, should be mentioned in the related pages, e.g. the gods and the Gielinorian god wars pages - imo. We shoudl do the same with the Fremennik god, Camel god, the Naragi god, and others that are specifically mentioned. Ideally I would like multiple accounts/sources about this naragi god. But somethings are only said once and still considered lore or canon. Somethings are hinted multiple times to be not so and people disagree and lore is changed (like Brassica Prime's sword of Damocles: eventually he was 'confirmed', and be people wer happy again), sometimes things are said multiple times to be so and people disagree, but lore is not changed (see topic above). What's wrong with adding this and removing it if it turned out to be false?? Iban and Bob are still mentioned on this page. For as far as I know... they were never intended to be real.  . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 11:21, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

Osborne never said/meant that the Naragi had a god, he just meant that they were unable to use divination on the gods that died in their god wars. We already knew the existence of more gods than just Saradomin, Tuska and Skargaroth from The World Wakes, where Guthix stated that MANY gods died. The article is about known gods, not gods that are only implied to exist exist. Wahisietel (Talk) 14:42, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

So how do you know there was not a Naragi god? You gave no source, where I did give a source. If Mod Osborne did misspoke... we can remove it, we have seen nothing denying he did. We don't ask for multiple sources that something is true when it's about... Mirambo's godhood tier, e.g. Or about the Karamjan/Fremennik gods that he talked about... So why would we do that here, give a source, or I think I will have to add it.  . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 11:16, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

The Karamjan and Fremennik gods have been mentioned multiple tmes by Osborne, and have been spoken of definitively, whereas for the Naragi god, you are just misinterpreting what he said about them not being able to use divination on the gods that died in the God Wars on their world (of which there were MULTIPLE that we don't know about, not just one.) Wahisietel (Talk) 11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

I have only interpreted it literally as he said, to do otherwise... seems odd to me. So please answer my question: how do you know there was not a Naragi god? Ooops... forgot to sign on August 31, 2013, at 11:39.  . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 14:08, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Here a fore-warning, just as I did with the previous topic: unless there are further objections (due to the lack of response I assume people agree with me now..), I'm going to re-add it soon. . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 16:25, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

There is no reason to assume this Naragi god, about whom we don't know anything other than the fact they're dead, is more notable than other gods who fought in the war. Fswe1 16:49, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

There is, Mod Osborne sort of confirmed he exists - true, unless he misspoke. But he is notable for only excisting. . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 19:26, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

No, all gods who participated in the Naragi God Wars and are unnamed are equally notable for having existed, i.e. not at all. No reason to mention a random one, when the information is the same for maybe five, ten, twenty gods who could all have fought and died. Fswe1 19:31, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

I got an Idea, just wait until another Q&A podcast or so, and ask when you can. Adventurerrr ^Talk 19:28, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

We don't know the names of the Karamjan and Fremennik gods... we do we mention them - if not having a name is a criteria to not mention them... we don't mention possible other gods of the Naragi GW because we didn't know they existed.. all we know was Saradomin, Tuska, Skargaroth, in that order and nothing more. Then Mod Osborne confirms this one (yes without a name, but there are more unnamed gods that we still mention. As for Raul's point... Mod Osborne doesn't answer all questions that are asked. I'm going to do that regardless, but he already said something about it. Why is that not good enough? . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 20:03, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Mod Osborne just said that a god other than Skargaroth died in the Naragi God Wars. We have known this since The World Wakes. Mod Osborne has said we will learn more on the Fremennik God and Karamjan God in future, but we have no such thing with all of the Naragi gods that died in the Naragi God Wars. And seeing as they're dead, we aren't going to learn anything else about them. You really shouldn't re-add them, you're the only one that believes they should be on the article. Wahisietel (Talk) 10:49, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Well then we know basically for certain. Btw, I'm not the nly one.Also Suppa agrees with me. Are you sayinbg that we shoud onlyadd things if they say we will definately learn more about them sometime in the future?? . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 12:31, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you're getting it. There was no "Naragi god". Multiple gods, aside from Tus, Sar and Ska, participated in the god wars and died. We know nothing about them and we aren't going to discover anything about them either. Also, calling one of those random gods who died the "Naragi god" is deceptive; not only does it suggest there was a god the Naragi worshipped, it also implies that this was the only god who died in the wars (aside from Skargaroth), which is not the case. Fswe1 12:45, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Suppa doesn't agree with you. Also, just because he does (which he actually doesn't), it doesn't give any validity to your argument. We went along with your little theory to avoid a lore argument like this. We'd also appreciate if you didn't try to drag us into it. MolMan 13:22, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

I believe he does, I never claimed it would give more credence to what I'm saying here, nor do I think that... you're forgetting you were the one that said, no-one besides me thinks that he deserves mentioning. Also We know Skargaroth died. Apparently Mod Osborne said another god died (Saradomin didn't, Tuska didn't, and those were all mentioned, for as far as I know, please direct me to a source saying otherwise). Fswe1, have you listen to the part I cited -- or read what I wrote? I will provide it again:

“

When asked by a player: "Did the Nagari practice divination with their own dead god?", Mod Osborne answered: "Uhm... No. The god died too quickly... for that too happen."

”

As said in: Mod Hew and Mod Osborne at Twitch.tv, on August 23, 2013, titled Divination - Official Jagex Livestream, leaking unknown lore from 1:42:08 to 1:42:16. url: http://www.twitch.tv/runescape/b/450222906 . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 14:57, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

If you aren't listening to what other people are saying, I'm not going to bother "discussing" this anymore... Fswe1 15:10, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

What makes you think I don't listen, and to what? . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 15:26, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

You seem to be ignoring the parts where we say that we've known that multiple gods we don't know about died in the Naragi God Wars since the release of the World Wakes. But other than the fact that they existed and that they died, there's literally no other information about them, and extremely unlikely for there to ever be any more. By the looks of it, Suppa was speaking of allowing a small section in the trivia or something. Wahisietel (Talk) 19:54, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

If we had a section about the unknown gods that died in the Naragi God Wars, then we'd have to do the same for the remaining ones that were active in Gielinor at one point that we know absolutely nothing about, besides there being at least 20 gods active at one point. Wahisietel (Talk) 19:56, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Multiple unnamed unknown gods of which we know nothing else about than that they died. IF this quote is correct, then we know that one of those gods was Naragi, that it died fast, that it was around when there where still Naragi living and that died before Skargaroth (because at that time there were no Naragi left besides Guthix). To me that sounds more than "nothing at all". In addition, we also already added a bit about there being about 20 gods in the RS multiverse (it's in the 1st sentence of the 2nd paragraph). I think it would be good too also add th einformation that there were more than just three gods in the Naragi world (before Guthix ascended) and that one of them was this Naragi god. I don't see why not. And instead of placing it in trivia or in a section like I just desccribed you want to remove it completely. I thought you once said about me that you hate argueing because I never want to make a compromise... you also said I don't listen. It's hard for me to not feel the same.  . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 10:03, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Stop saying "Naragi god". Multiple gods about whom we don't know a thing died in the wars. Fswe1 10:26, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Where did you get the god being a Naragi from? Osborne never said that. The only god that was originally a Naragi is Guthix. Wahisietel (Talk) 16:02, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

As you can see by the quote I gave ("Did the Nagari practice divination with their own dead god? Uhm... No. The god died too quickly... for that too happen."), Osborne did not really seem to disagree with the questioner's phrasing "Naragi...their own god". That's why I think it's obvious to call it the Naragi god (which doesn't necessarily mean that this god's race was Naragi, although it could well be, but at least it's clear that the Naragi considered it their own). And yes.. multiple gods may have died that we don't know a think about. But at the same time we also know some things about this particular god.  . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 19:59, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

There is no "particular" god. Multiple fought and died (quickly), and that's literally everything we know about them. Fswe1 20:06, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

So, again, tell me why you know so well that Osborne was not talking about a particular god?? I agree it is known there were multiple gods that died (quickly) but that doesn't mean that Osborne could not/would not/shall not talk about one in particular, especially when asked.  . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 20:21, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

Because Guthix said so. He himself told me right before he died. MolMan 20:24, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

Well I talked to an orange and she told me something else...

No one cares if you watch Annoying Orange. Guthix himself told us that his people were a godless race and were quickly wiped out by the bellicosity of the invading deities. MolMan 20:31, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

Having said that, some of the Naragi did start worshipping some of the invading gods. But The key word there is GODS. Wahisietel (Talk) 08:34, September 9, 2013 (UTC)

I know not of the orange you speak of... and humans were godless too (that's why Guthix brought them to Gielinor to start with), then they started to worship him. Things change. The Naragi were godless. Then the gods came in, some they worshiped, some died, one of these was apparently the Naragi god I speak of (only ebcause Osborne mentioend it). And some left again, like Tuska and Sara. . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 20:01, September 9, 2013 (UTC)

Tiers... and a half

I already said this on the Zamorak talk page, but this part may be useful for a discusion on this page too:

I don't think there are 'half' tiers or even decimal tiers. The whole point of that Mod Edam quote (where gods can be more effective than their tier suggests) is to show them as not too rigid, giving each god an even more defined tier number seems to me to be heading in an odd direction. I don't think Mod Mark really meant to say that he's now tier 2.5, but rather meant it as, he's not to be considered tier 2, although he did became more powerful, he's still tier 2. The lower desert gods are also more powerful than the Avatars, but this is not expressed in tiers and a half or even more detailed. . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 10:10, October 5, 2013 (UTC)

I agree, even within a tier they can be different strengths so the entire concept of half tiers is not only illogical but more importantly, unnecessary. ^T_H^A_R^K_O^N 04:12, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

3 . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 10:59, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

Zaros First

I think that the God Zaros should be first on the God list rather than Guthix, now that he is dead. I think alive Gods should take higher priority over deceased Gods, as we'll be seeing them more often anyway. MahjarratInfo101 05:36, November 9, 2013 (UTC)

I think alphabetical order is the best idea (after tier, but no within tier power-structure), so: Guthix, Seren, Zaros. But... honestly, I don't really care :P  . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 07:57, November 9, 2013 (UTC)

The rest of the list sorted neither by tier not alphabetically as far as I can tell. Since we cannot tell exactly the difference in power within the tiers I would vote alphabetically. If we do sort by tier though we should group them by tier as well, using some small headers. ^T_H^A_R^K_O^N 22:38, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Mahjarrats

Q: Kharshai says: "Whatever source it was that gave Guthix his power, I believe that Mahjarrat derive from the same source, or something similar." Are Mahjarrat rankable on the tiers of Godhood?

Mod Jack: It’s probably meaningful to consider Mahjarrat as very low tier 7 divine beings.

According to the Mahjarrat FAG, Mod jack states on how it is meaningful to consider Mahjarrat as very low tier 7 divine beings. I have sited proof of this, and so. I await your comments. Adventurerrr ^Talk 16:07, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

He didn't mean it literally. He means they're of a similar power level, but they are not gods. If they were gods, then Zamorak couldn't have ascended to godhood, nor Sliske. Wahisietel (Talk) 16:16, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Similarly, they said the Dragonkin were of a similar power to tier 5 gods at RuneFest, but that doesn't mean they are tier 5 gods. Also, just going to point out that by reverting Fswe's revert, you broke RS:3RR. Wahisietel (Talk) 16:19, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

What Wahi said - their power levels are near-divine after a ritual, but that doesn't make them gods. They're mortal and stuff. Fswe1 16:24, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

The answer pretty much goes on statting the question asked, and I am sorry for breaking the RS:3RR (fact a lot of people do at times) but I do apologies. Now, back the the answer, it states that they can be considered low Tier seven, and Tier seven aren't considered as gods, but as (correct me if I am wrong) Being that have big powers, where they are known to be extremly powerful. So, if I can say that Mod Jack, what he could mean is, in a rank of the Godhood, they are low tier seven, to where they aren't considered as gods, but still in that rank. Over all I think they shoul remain in the table (or at least information on the page stating.)  Adventurerrr ^Talk 16:28, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

He didn't say they were on tier 7, he said it could be meaningful to consider them to be on tier 7. That doesn't neccessarily mean they are. Wahisietel (Talk) 16:34, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

True, but he could be stating that they are in that way as where I quote the question: "Are mahjarrat rankable on the tiers of Godhood" Jack did respond, giving the answer that are low tier seven. (considered) pretty much that they are low T 7. Maybe you're right, or not, after all, Mods always give us answers, at time hard to point it in. Adventurerrr ^Talk 16:40, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Unless we have a source actually saying "The Mahjarrat are tier 7" then we shouldn't be saying they are. All we have is a source saying "it might be meaningful to consider them tier 7". Since the Mahjarrat are an entire species and not the avatar or aspects of a god, the can't literally be tier 7. Wahisietel (Talk) 16:46, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

You have a point there then, I still beleive this information should be stated somewhere in this page, like, a trivia maybe? This page could use a few. Adventurerrr ^Talk 16:49, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Wahisietel (Talk) 16:56, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Mod Osborne has said in the past that the Mahjarrat could reach the power of the gods (N.B.: not at the time, with the ritual being the source of their power). See the (current) first sentence of the second paragraph of the Mahjarrat page Each Rejuvenation makes the Mahjarrat more powerful than they were at the last rejuvenation, making them increase in power over the years "and potentially maybe even reaching godhood levels". Similar thing had been said about the Dragonkin and them pushing tier 7 due to the stone's (over)use by false users. That Kharshai thinks Mahjarrat share something similar with gods isn't a wild idea. We know they were created by an elder god, we know young gods only happen due to the magic of elder gods (be it directly by using their artefacts, or indirectly by killing other gods). It was said all magic eventually can be pinned down to the elder gods.

“

Question by Lord William: Is magic the manifestation of the Elder Gods' power, or are the Elder Gods the ultimate manifestation of magical power? Answer by Mod Raven: Both. The elder gods are the source of all magic and therefore are also the ultimate manifestation of magical power.

”

All in all, I don't think the Mahjarrat could possibly be Tier 7 gods, I think Mod Jack said that you could consider them as very low tier 7 divine beings, because that's the closest thing they are. . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 22:12, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Deities

Would it be worth moving the page to "Deities"? "Gods" usually only refers to male deities, and the page has a number of goddesses who are pretty much never referred to as gods, namely Seren, Elidinis, Marimbo, Crondis, Tuska, Apmeken and the Elder Gods. Since Deities is a gender neutral term, it would arguably be more accurate. Wahisietel (Talk) 11:52, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

I'm all for it, but when I first asked about this the reply was that "Gods" can be neutral and male, just not female. I was told to leave it this way because it was fine the way it is. Still leaves the "Elder Gods" to be odd... since they're female. . . . _Yours, Enquidou ^Talk . . 15:10, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Elder Gods aren't really female...they're just semi-elemental beings of time with immense power. There's really nothing compare them to and their reproduction isn't sexual, so it can definitely be said they transcend gender. They're referred to as female because they're considered "mothers" though. Arguably, the tier 2 gods don't have genders either; Guthix because he calls himself old and balanced and stuff, thus transcending gender, and Zaros and Seren because they're, well, crystals. But that all aside, move it to deity if you want. But yes, in my opinion 'gods' does account for both male and female (and genderless :P) divine entities. Fswe1 15:51, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

The name "Elder Gods" was decided on back when Jas was considered male. I'd rather wait for more discussion before moving it, as while Deity would be a more accurate term, we've had it at "Gods" for a very long time. Wahisietel (Talk) 16:03, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

On the other hand, they're almost always referred to as "Gods" in-game, what with God Emissaries and such, but still, it's somewhat inaccurate to call a page "Gods" when it has a number of "Goddesses". Ah well. Wahisietel (Talk) 16:33, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Dark Lord

It seems obvious that the Dark Lord is tier 7, since it's an aspect of Seren's personality. Should it be added to the list? 50.80.227.98 16:13, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Not unless a mod confirms it. Wahisietel (Talk) 16:31, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

New God

Just copying from the VIP October Q&A thread (QFC: 383-384-2-65491485):

Q: In runefest 2013, they said that a god would die, and a new god would arise. However, in the game Sliske said he did not become a god because he doesn't want to miss out on the afterlife... But then who else is? Who is the 'new' god that will arise? Has he still to be revealed or was it indeed Sliske, but packed in a cloak of deception?

A: Mod Osborne: Why does it have to be a 'he'? Yes, we have plans for a new god to rise. That god hasn't changed, and they are still planned. They are a feature of one of the story pillars - Dragonking, Stone of Jas or Elder Gods - and that's all I am giving you!

IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 05:17, October 25, 2014 (UTC)

I am VIP my self, so I wouldn't need it, but why put it?  Adventurerrr ^Talk 21:15, October 25, 2014 (UTC)

Guthix

I've been thinking. Should Guthix still really be at the top of the Ascendant God list? I mean, he's been dead for 2 years now, he's kinda old news, and other gods like Saradomin and Zamorak are definitely more pronounced in the game now. I personally don't think Guthix should be at the top of the Ascendant Gods list anymore. Thoughts? MahjarratInfo101 08:44, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

He's at the top because he (was) the strongest ascendant god. And I'd argue he's still extremely relevant, even if he is dead. Wahisietel (Talk) 09:05, March 6, 2015 (UTC)