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This thread was archived on 19 April 2010 by Liquidhelium.

hi, everybody. at the end of this thread, i said i was going to make a compromise when my new keybord came. unfortunately, the thread got closed before my keybord came. i have my keybord now, so how about this:

the runescape cache files would have its own article. all images from it would be kept in this article, or possibly on a subpage(s). since we are only guessing at what the images are of, they would have no names and would not appear in any articles other then the cache article. this would avoid speculation and guessing on names, whilst also avoiding guessing on what they are/when they will appear.

regarding jagex being opposed to this: first off, as you may have guessed, jagex does not support us using these images. however, there is no penalties for using them- jagex cannot take legal action against us, nor can they ban every single account that is mentioned on userpages. i know the wiki is not for encouraging rule breaking, however we also are supposed to ignore all rules as long as we are improving the wiki. if viewing these images hurt someone, we should not do it. however, it does no serious, longlasting, or unnecessary damage to us, jagex, or really anybody for that matter, nor does it harm gameplay in any way.

also, jagex already does not respect us, thus, i dont feel we have anything to lose in that department, and certainly something to gain. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 3rd age farcaster (talk) on 14:50 March 26, 2010.

Summary of arguments

For Against
Jagex
  • The models are obtained using free open-source third party software
  • The files are compressed and stored by Jagex in our computers using standard compression algorithms that many software developers use freely.
  • There is no effort made by Jagex to protect these images
  • It is perfectly legal to publish these model images under "fair use"
  • If legal, reverse engineering is not against the terms and conditions.
  • The model viewer may fit the definition of the "interoperability" exception permitting legal reverse engineering.
  • Reverse engineering is against Jagex's Terms & Conditions if illegal "You must not reverse-engineer, decompile or modify any Jagex Product client software in any way (except to the extent allowed by applicable law)"
  • J-Mods have advised against discussing any non-Jagex third party software in the official forums
Speculative nature
  • Possible early heads up on soon to be released items, quests, and areas or works in progress.
  • Difficult to distinguish fanart from genuine model viewer images
Existing wiki policies
  • The wiki is not... Jagex. We are an independent wiki.
  • If it is to improve the wiki, ignore all rules.
  • Granularity: The wiki is for all things about Runescape, including features Jagex does not want revealed.

Discussion

Support - Read the other thread[1] as any argument for or against has already been covered. I still feel strongly that we are not disrespecting Jagex or weaseling our way around rules and regulations, and that the images in the cache would be both fun and interesting to include on the wiki. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 19:23, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Question - Why couldn't Jagex take legal action against Wikia for it? thehimmemote.pngGone. 19:34, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Oi, my ignorance, nevermind. thehimmemote.pngGone. 19:35, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Support - I was also thinking about something like this, but I couldn't quite make up my mind what to put in the proposal. I think that this is a good compromise, so I support this - as long as we are very careful about these images, by which I mean that we should make sure that they aren't used on other pages, and that any speculation about them should be removed. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 22:39, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Changed to Strong Oppose - Per my talk page. I thought that you meant that we should put images of all things in the RSMV about which we don't know what they are on one page, so I supported. But then you said that you actually want to put all RSMV images on one page. Now THAT is a waste of space! There's hundreds, thousands of images in that cache! Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 08:56, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Per Oli. It's about time this topic came to a close. ~ Fire Surge icon Sentry Telos Talk  23:23, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - It's still against Jagex's rules... --King LiquidheliumTalk 00:20, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

comment- they can take no action against us, nor is it hurting anyone. yes it is against jagex's rules, but would it be against any other rules? rules are ment to protect people and keep things fair. this does no harm nor does it give anybody an unfair advantage. i dont think its right to force all wikians to blindly follow unjust rules without questioning. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 01:17, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

RS:IAR only applies to Wiki policies. We have to follow all other rules, including Jagex's. Just because they don't enforce them does not give us the right to evade them. --King LiquidheliumTalk 01:25, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
since it applies to wiki policies, we can ignore the rule saying that we have to follow jagex's rules. and do you support blindly following pointless or worse rules? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 01:32, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
Jagex's rules do not apply here because of the Wiki policy that says it does. It applies because we are all clients of Jagex. So, we cannot use IAR to override Jagex rules. I don't like to follow stupid or pointless rules, but while they are rules, we have to follow them. Otherwise, if we establish the precedent of only following the rules we like, we'd be setting ourselves up for a state of anarchy. If we don't like a rule, then we should move to get it repealed. Outright disobedience isn't the solution. --King LiquidheliumTalk 01:40, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
we CANNOT move to repeal jagex's (stupid and pointless) no cache images rule. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 01:47, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
So just live with it. --King LiquidheliumTalk 01:53, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Slight oppose - Per Liquidhelium.  Ranged-icon Zap0i TalkRune scimitar  01:19, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose (Changed to support below) - Because I can. This is not civil disobedience as you like to think with "i dont think its right to force all wikians to blindly follow unjust rules without questioning." You are playing Jagex Ltd.'s IP, you are in their domain and you follow (blindly or quit their games) their rules, policy and terms of service. They have any and all rights to do with what they want and can create any rule they wish to have. Does this mean it's right? Well, yes it does. It's their property, ever heard the phrase "Get off my land!"? Ryan PM 01:56, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

they can create any rule they want- but do we have to follow it? NO. we are NOT jagex, we are NOT on their property. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 02:01, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
If you want to play their game, then you have to follow their rules. No one is forcing you to follow the rules, but if you don't want to follow them, then just quit RS. --King LiquidheliumTalk 02:02, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
maby i have. maby i will. it is irrevelent, as (this is directed at both of you) i am not playing jagex ltd's ip, nor am i in their domain. i am on rs wiki.Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 02:04, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
Well, if you're not playing, then what's the problem? The only way to get those files is by playing RS. So, anyone that plays has those files and will have to obey Jagex's rules regarding them. Anyone that doesn't play won't have those files and has no rules to worry about. --King LiquidheliumTalk 02:06, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict)again, me playing or not does not matter. it is your opinion that if im not gunna follow their rules i should quit/not have the files. are you trying to force me to do as you what you would do? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 02:13, March 27, 2010 (UTC))
I believe that you agreed to Jagex's Terms and Conditions when you registered for your account. So, you're bound to their rules. --King LiquidheliumTalk 02:17, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Comment Please quote exactly what rule is being broken in exactly which way and specify how it is applicable. One mod saying it is against the rules is not sufficient for this purpose. Be specific if you wish your argument to have merit.--Degenret01

The problem with quoting the rules is that RS rules themselves are extremely vague for things that do not deal with in-game activity. The forum post of a J-mod is the most reliable source that we have from Jagex, so I advocate that as the de jure basis for this rule. --King LiquidheliumTalk 02:16, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
Being a J-mod means he can program games, it says zero about his ability to understand the rules and applicable laws. --Degenret01 02:18, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Please learn this, everyone has a right to their opinion. I opposed more or less due to your comments and attacking volatile nature to those who you think have no reason to oppose or whose points are invalid. If you will not stop acting sophomoric towards the concept of "I'm right your wrong" can-do attitude, you may be thought of as such. I also based my opinion on posts on the RuneScape Official Forums by Jagex staff members. Now we get to where this is a "fansite." While we are not recognized by them, we are still liable to have Jagex request the removal of any image, and possibly the closure of the Wiki in the most extreme case. I request you let people have their own opinions, this isn't George Carlin It's Bad for Ya: "So the next time some asshole says to you, 'I have a right to my opinion,' you say, 'Oh yeah? Well, I have a right to my opinion, and my opinion is that you have no right to your opinion.' Then shoot the fuck and walk away!" Ryan PM 02:19, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

i am not challanging your opinion. and what do you expect me to do? just let ppl oppose without presenting my side of the arguement? i dont want to seem like a easy-to-anger idiot, but honestly- should i be just sitting back and watching? your not doing, nor is liquid, nor is degenret. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 02:24, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - We don't need a repeat of previous events friends, we have already drawn this on long enough. Literally all arguments we have all seen have been presented in some form. Now my personal opinion on the issue of "its wrong because Jagex says so" is that it has zero legal grounds which Robert Horning did an excellent job of proving in the other thread (see my first post for link). Liquid, your reasoning is fallacious at best. You are welcome to your opinion of course, but stating your opinion and hiding behind it like a brick wall is not helping anything. While you are forced to obtain images from the game in some form does not mean you can simply apply rules to them like a big legal bandage, it just doesn't work that way. I encourage you to read through Roberts posts in the previous thread on the legal side of it to get a better understanding of the situation. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 05:49, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Changed to slight support - Because of Robert Horning's discussion point(s) in the previous thread. However (and I assume that this would happen anyway) these images would be replaced with an actual in-game screen capture due to the cached images only retaining standard detail textures. Worse case scenario, Jagex requests the removal of the images and/or severing any (?) ties they have to us. Ryan PM 18:25, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

the images would be in a special cache article- you couldnt add non-cache images to the article, nor could u add any cache images to pages outside of the cache page. this is to limit speculation and to keep these images seporate, as they should be. thanks for changing your position. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 19:10, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
Only cache images of stuff that isn't in-game yet would be put on there, right? Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 19:24, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
but how do we know if it is in game or not? i dont really care aether way, but it seems like it could cause speculaton. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 19:46, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
By looking at the image! I thought this proposal was about putting all the RSMV images which show something that is not in game on one page, so I supported (because just checking that page regularly would then avoid speculation), but if this is about replacing all images with RSMV images... Then I would oppose extremely strongly. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 20:09, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
Explanation please Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 22:14, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I'm quite confused on what the benefits of using the model viewer would be. Can't we get just as high (or higher) quality images using the Orb of oculus? --Aburnett(Talk) 20:07, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Jagex commonly stores unreleased or work in progress items, textures, areas etc in the cache that you could not obtain using any ingame method such as the orb. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 20:28, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. Wouldn't using images of unreleased content violate RS:NOT#CRYSTAL though? We have no proof the items depicted in these images will ever be released. --Aburnett(Talk) 20:31, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
My intention is not to be rude, but if you read the other thread all of this is covered in extreme detail. To answer though, we are not making the assumption that the images will be released nor stating what we think as fact. We are simply documenting everything we know about Runescape including what is in the cache. As an example, before the dragon pickaxe and platebody were released cache versions of them were available. Images that are unclear or unfinished to the point of being incomprehensible are to be tagged letting everyone know that there is no official explanation and offering ideas as to what it could be based on official Jagex announcements. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 20:39, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your understanding Tebuddy, you're not being rude at all. It's true, I was simply too lazy to go back and read over that whole thread. I'll admit ignorance and step out of this discussion Lol --Aburnett(Talk) 20:51, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose per Liquidhelium. Putting this into action would break all of the rules of common sense that I know. shinyunownt.png ShinyUnown T | C | E 20:33, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Liquidhelium. HaloTalk 20:35, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

You guys really should read the other thread. This is not against the rules. Any official Jagex comments on the issue has revealed that they do not want users talking about it in the forums, which makes sense considering no users are allowed to post links or images because of potential security risks. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 20:39, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

comment - please, somebody, give me a reason why these rules should exist, instead of saying lets blindly follow them. 97.114.139.204 21:17, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

that last comment was mine, sorry. idk why my account logged out o_o Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 21:19, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
Helium did...because we all play runescape we are bound to follow Jagex's rules. HaloTalk 21:25, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
You cant just create a reason out of thin air that does not make any sense and then apply it to every situation. This is not in game, we are not Jagex, they do not recognize us. Those rules do not apply to us. Even if they did, the model viewer does not break any ingame rules and does not breach the terms of service. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 21:29, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
Read the above discussion some more, particularly helium's and ryan m's comments. HaloTalk 21:37, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
You don't think he already has? Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 22:03, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
From his statement, it doesn't look like it. HaloTalk 22:04, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
It seems more like you don't understand what he said, than like he read the discussion. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 22:06, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps not, but I don't really think we are getting anywhere here. HaloTalk 22:07, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
can we just leave the rules out of this? oppose points such as that this encourages speculation and that the images are bad quality are valid- we can discuss them, make compromises, etc. but with the rules objection, we cannot make a deal, we cannot agree, the only possible outcome is that the thing is rejected, no matter how much we try to reach out and be constructive. 97.114.139.204 22:57, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
omg wtf logged out again... that above is my comment needless to say..-.- sorry... Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 22:59, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
What I am saying Haloolah is that you cannot apply this made up rule to the discussion when it does not exist. Just because you think the model viewer is against the rules, does not mean it is. If it was, people who were opposed in the previous discussion would have no problem finding where in the terms or rule list that it is. We have already determined that extracting images from a file archive like the cache is no more reverse engineering than extracting images from a zip file, and hence does not breach the Runescape TOS. If your intention is the oppose compromise simply on some obscure moral ground that you refuse to defend simply because it is your opinion, I wish you would remove your vote and no longer post because this discussion has been on the ropes for months now.. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 23:30, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
I'm not going to remove my vote. And I will continue to post as long as I believe I have something useful to say. HaloTalk 23:34, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
All you have repeated is that you think its against the rules and as such should not be considered in any way. If you have something more to add I am all ears. I am not trying to silence you, just asking you to look past your personal beliefs and see the perspective of those who made the compromise and want the changes made based on what we have determined legally possible. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 23:38, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
haloolah, what can i do that would make the proposal more appealing to you?Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 23:48, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
Nothing really. HaloTalk 23:54, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Neutral - Like said above, it is against Jagex's rules. However, ultimately there isn't much that Jagex could do about it. Ajraddatz Talk 23:43, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

It's not about what Jagex would do about it, it's about us as their players respecting their rules. HaloTalk 23:54, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
And that is an argument based on nothing more than how you feel personally about rules and respect. We are trying to reach a compromise that will benefit everyone here, and we all have a huge difference in how we lead our personal lives. Opposing like you are now and unwilling to compromise is why this issue has been delayed for months now. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 23:58, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
Wait what? A huge difference in how we lead our personal lives? Seriously...I'm starting to wonder. I don't see how this has any affect on our personal lives. I'm lost. HaloTalk 00:01, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
The point is this. Instead of me saying "Well I believe rules are there to be broken" in response to you and sitting behind it like a brick wall, we need to remove personal feelings from the equation. You are effectively stonewalling everyone who supports the compromise with your personal views and contributing nothing. The compromise so far has seen absence of personal feelings and is based on legality and practicality and everyone is willing to modify it to suit collective agreement. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 00:22, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
It's not a personal feeling. I keep my personal feelings (drama) in real life, we have enough of that, no need to introduce it into a game. HaloTalk 00:28, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
So then why should we respect Jagex nonexistent rule? Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 03:20, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
I respect the arguments in both directions, and while I lead towards oppose, I still think that the supporters have a point. Ajraddatz Talk 23:55, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Since some users have decided not to re-read the past thread, I have copied Azliqs chart and modified it based on the older discussion to prevent users supporting or opposing based on arguments that have already been covered. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 23:53, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

i changed the table to better fit my compromise. anybody object to the changes? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 01:05, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I'd like to get this out there. As 3rd age farcaster has said on my talk page, this page would contain all RSMV images. Every single image in that cache. This is not about putting images of unreleased stuff on the wiki, it's about putting low-quality images of everything on the wiki, even if we already have better images. Please re-think your vote if you also thought that this was only about images of unreleased stuff. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 08:58, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

LOL, nothing set in stone, if you want that changed we can come to an agreement.....not 2 mention there is no limit on space -.-...Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 13:32, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
Maybe physically there is no limit in space, but what would you say about moderating something like that? For example, if all these images are mass-uploaded, that would flood the upload log and thus make it extremely easy for people to upload vandal images. Of course that would be a one-time issue, but there is still the nightmare of moderating something like that.
And another point, putting thousands of images on a page. Maybe you use a Cray Jaguar, but most of have computers that simply wouldn't be able to handle that kind of lag. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 14:46, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
can we keep this discussion on your talk page? im basically posting the same message 2 times. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 14:53, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
I'd rather put it here so that it's easier for everyone to read and contribute. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 14:56, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

to liquid, and haloo: why should we follow jagex's rules? we are not jagex, and we CAN show information on the wiki that jagex does not want on the wiki. even "Scamming, and other activity in violation of the fifteen Jagex rules, generally hurts the game and is not something we as editors wish to promote." shouldnt really include this, as this does not generally hurt the game. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 14:59, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

I don't like the idea of dumping the entire cache, that does seem like a mess. It would be interesting to upload them all into one directory as a gallery for users who may not know how/want to browse the cache on their own, but I was thinking we would look strictly for images that we can speculate on based on other evidence we have available. Thats not to say we should not do it, but lets stick to getting the compromise approved before we reject it based on maybes. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 19:12, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I have not read any of the arguments except in the summary, and I am not participating in this discussion because I really don't know enough to make an opinion, but it looks like we should be having a discussion to change the Images and Media policy before we do anything else. (davelopo) 17:52, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

yea. a change to that is also in order, imo, however this was, maby isnt anymore, a seporate issue. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 18:40, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Proposal

Since the original proposal isn't getting anywhere, I think this may be a better compromise:

We check all images in the cache and make a list of images of which the subject is not in-game yet. Then, we upload only those images. The images all go on one big page. If there turns out to be a lot of them, we might decide to split the page into categories, but I think that won't be the case. Then what we write about each image is this:

  • Its number
  • If possible, when it was put in the cache

This would mean that there is no speculation.

I think this is a better compromise than the previous one, because this way we wouldn't end up uploading thousands of images, just a few. I don't like the idea of these images, but it has been pretty much proven that they're not against the rules. Also, think about how all this extra information could benefit the wiki.

Discussion

Support - As nom. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 19:38, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - we wouldnt be uploading thousands of images under my proposal aether, just thousands of numbers on seporate sub-pages. also, you would be speculating as to weather it was in game or not- look at the wilderness castle or saradomin GWD. those are all ingame, but ppl might not reconise stuff from them. i prefer my proposal, but will go with this if nessary. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 19:43, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Support - guess ill go with this for now, maby change it later. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 15:43, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

I think a group of users will be able to pick out which images really aren't in game, or at least cannot be seen. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 19:45, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Excellent. ~ Fire Surge icon Sentry Telos Talk  21:01, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Support if changed slightly - I don't think we should discourage speculation, and it doesn't seem to be the hiccup most of the opposers see. Speculation can be a really good thing regardless of what our ridiculous and very old policy says. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 23:36, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

it depends, lol. speculating that the odd old man at barrows is sliske is entirely possible and good, however speculating that the grim reaper is zaros.. not so much. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 23:55, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
But that's the problem. When is something speculation, and when is something nonsense? There is good evidence that the odd old man is Sliske - there is no evidence as to what those cache images mean. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 05:29, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
As long as we are neutral about it and base our speculation on confirmed information, then we are in the clear. For example, before the dragon pickaxe was released we knew that Jagex mentioned dragon skilling items would eventually be released. So if we find a dragon colored pick shaped tool, we can speculate that the image in question is the dragon pickaxe, or a variation of the dragon pickaxe. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 05:38, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Opposing because of morally, encouraging rule breaking, biting the hand that feeds us, etc. Same reasons previously. I am really sorry, but I will never be able to support a proposal while these concerns are are not nullified. The problem is that there is really no middle ground for this to be placed. Unicorn horn dust Evil Yanks talk 06:03, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Once again, this is not against Jagex rules or disrespecting them in any way. We have already established that they have discouraged discussion of third party applications of any type on the official forums. This does not address the issue in any way nor address the legality. The wealth of information and discussion we could bring to the wiki by allowing images to be extracted from the cache is mind numbingly amazing, and I tire of people constantly assuming Jagex feels a certain way simply because they have remained silent. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 06:39, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
Jagex have said on multiple occasions that they will ban any user who accesses the files. Caleb even has a photo of them saying it in-game if you think that the forums is the problem. It is against how Jagex interprets the rules, so as far as I can tell nothing is wrong with my moral objections. Unicorn horn dust Evil Yanks talk 06:47, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
Please find me this picture if you would be so kind, I just went through calebs talk page, and the other thread and found no mention of it. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 08:36, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
I think Evil Yanks was referring to this image:   az talk   08:44, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
ModCrowontheimages2.png
Thank you AZ :). As for the image itself, ridiculous. Caleb is essentially asking the mod to say reverse engineering is illegal which any Jagex mod who knows their own TOS would agree too. It seems as though not even Mod Crow is familiar with exactly how the model viewer or game cache works. I also think we have established by now that decompressing a file archive is not reverse engineering or "messing with game code". Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 09:06, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
Erm, did Mod Crow say "see accounts banned" or "see accounts"? It's important since if he meant "see accounts", then that can be inferred as meaning that, to be blunt, Mod Crow has no idea what he is talking about. Hello71 22:04, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
I am pretty sure he just broke his sentence up so he didn't get cut off by the small chat window. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 01:00, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
How exactly would they ban us? Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 14:12, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

they wouldnt. jagex is full of idiots, and all i can imagine is that they want to look tough to ppl who are considering viewing these files. maby theres another reason, but i cant think of what it would b. 15:22, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

God, this has all become so pedantic, arguing over how you interpret how Jagex interprets their rules. Without Jagex doing a backflip and giving people the go ahead to browse through those files, I don't think that I will ever support this. Unicorn horn dust Evil Yanks talk 02:14, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
"Pedantic: insisting on strict adherence to formal rules or literal meaning at the expense of a wider view." example: a few people blindly following jagex's non-existent or unnecessary rules while in the process depriving the community of something a majority supports. yea, i think that sums it up. thanks yanks. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 02:23, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
Asking a Jagex mod whether reverse engineering is against the rules or not when this issue is not about reverse engineering hardly gives the final yes or no on everything. If I were a public relations person in Mod Crows position and I had little experience in technical side of the game and was merely answering player questions, I would probably have spit out the same garbage from the rulebook that he did. Trying to use that photo as evidence for us to not pursue this is simple dishonesty. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 03:24, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
3rd age - I have never heard anyone use pedantic to mean that before. This is what I meant "overly concerned with minute details or formalisms". I am not sure what you are trying to achieve with insults and sarcasm...
TEbuddy - At least we are moving forward since you have just admitted that against the "garbage from the rulebook" to do the the reverse-engineer-model-viewer-thing. Saying that it is against the rulebook to me seems no different to saying that it is against Jagex's interpretation of the rules. I might just be strange, but I trust Mod Crow on this situation since he along with the few other Jagex Lite-posting Jagex mods would probably be the only J mods who would need to know this kind of information. Jagex Lite constantly get these kind of obscure questions. Unicorn horn dust Evil Yanks talk 06:53, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
I didn't admit anything. My point was to say that in a situation where Jagex has no official stance like this one, that a mod who is caught on the spot would default to the closest rule that can be applied to the situation. If Mod Crowe is not familiar with how the model viewer works or how file archives in general work he is going to believe that in order to view the files you need to manipulate the game code or reverse engineer something which is not the case.Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 07:34, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
Te, ill assume you removed this by accident.
Sorry, total accident. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 20:34, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, totally misinterpreted what you said. I thought you meant that he was just wasn't from tech support and didn't know what he was talking about, not that he wasn't from tech support and misinterpreted the question. To me this is too far. You have been talking about how jagex have never given their opinion on the subject, and when they do you disregard it since they are not knowledgeable enough on the subject. He must have some knowledge on the subject, as he thought without any telling him that it had something to do with game code. I am just going to assume good faith that he does know what he is talking about since he is a Jagex spokesman. Unicorn horn dust Evil Yanks talk 02:53, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

oh wate, wtf- he said MESSING with the game code. if somebody says "dont MESS with my science project while im gone", they mean dont touch it. you can look at it all you want, but you shouldnt start taking things apart and stuff. idk, but is it possible that crow thought that we were talking about something like hacking the code, rather then just looking at stuff? that would also cover the banning thing- hacking/glitch abusing/glitch causing(?) is all traceable and bannable. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 15:35, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

yanks, i am nor insulting you, nor am i being sarcastic. i am using your own words against you, which is surprisingly effective during debates such as this. it was clear to me that you hadnt ment that, and that you had ment definition #2. however, you had still gotten me to get off my computer and look in my dictionary and find a word very well suited to my cause, so i thinked you for it. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 14:16, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

Using my words against me is taking something that I have said previously and using it ironically against me later. Using definition 2 supports the context it was in perfectly, definition 1 makes no sense whatsoever. Unicorn horn dust Evil Yanks talk 02:52, March 31, 2010 (UTC)
You're acting like they have gone out of their way to let us know its not ok, and I am simply ignoring it. This is the only time I have ever seen a real Jagex response on the issue aside from when threads get closed immediately on the official forums. The man clearly did not have the information available to answer the question for our purposes. Caleb directly described something against the game rules and the terms of service when he asked Mod Crowe that question. We have already established months ago that this method is not reverse engineering or manipulation of game code and that makes Mod Crowes reply meaningless. If Caleb had asked something more realistic like "Mod Crow, is using archiving software to extract images from the game cache against the terms of service?" and Mod Crowe replied "Well technically no but I will ask around and see if we should encourage the behavior or not. Until then its best not to try it" then we would have our answer. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 19:55, March 31, 2010 (UTC)
do you at least admit crow didnt have a clue what he was talking about when he said they can ban for it? its so obvious they cant. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 19:35, March 31, 2010 (UTC)
I don't really care how you interpret the information Te, I am taking it for face value; that caleb asked him about it using the buzz words and his response was that you can be banned. Since nothing from Jagex says otherwise, I am sticking with that. Unicorn horn dust Evil Yanks talk 01:59, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
but that PROVES mod crow was lieing- you CANNOT be banned for it. its simply impossible. yes, they could ban every wikian for this, though i gurentee that wont happen. but even if they did- what about all the players who view the cache without telling anybody about it? as i said mod crow was caught aether lieing, not thinking correctly, or stating something he believed to be true that actually wasnt, but in any case caught being WRONG. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 03:03, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
What does how they would enforce the rules have to do with my moral oppose?? Why can nobody accept that I oppose on moral grounds and that be the end of it?? Unicorn horn dust Evil Yanks talk 05:04, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately in a discussion like this a few opposes are what is going to shut down the entire proposal. So sure, you can oppose based on nothing more than your right to oppose. Its ridiculous and childish and unfair, but if you just don't feel like compromising enough to actually try to please anyone but yourself and your "moral" views then go for it. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 05:48, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Comment- Right,people,I have some images of what RSMV is capable of.A gallery of them can be found here

If this does not change your opinion,then please do end this damn discussion X_X...

86.29.247.220 13:24, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - We don't need it. 18:48, March 31, 2010 (UTC)
seriously? we need this but not cache images? -.-..Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 19:27, March 31, 2010 (UTC)
As pointed out above this wiki is about factual information pointless or not, and as such information is not contributed based on whether we need it or not. We are not being true to the purpose of the wiki if you we just ignore information because we feel like it. As an example, tell me how many times you think people have looked up the lore on Lord Drakken or The Elf God Seren, or The Elder Gods all of which we have pages of information for. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 19:56, March 31, 2010 (UTC)
I have looked up each of those at least once. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 20:33, March 31, 2010 (UTC)
My point was that regardless of pageviews if it has to do with Runescape we have a page about it. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 20:37, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict with 3rd age farcaster) Oppose - Although I think that Jagex has no legal right to stop us from using the images, I just don't think they're needed. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 19:30, March 31, 2010 (UTC) 

Support I don't know if my vote counts here since I'm not a very active editor, but speaking as a person who browses this site a lot, and works on other wikis, I'd say it's worth having RSMV images here, just not all of them. Only some significant ones. I'm not sure what the guidelines would be for deciding if a given image is important enough, but there are probably lots of random images in there that would be a bit pointless to post and just take up space. But, I'm sure many people like myself would like being able to see some of the more unusual or important images, as I can't use the model viewer myself. I don't think it's really breaking Jagex's rules, since it doesn't affect that game in any way. Feel free to strike this comment if as a new/non active user I'm not supposed to vote. insaneular Talk 20:28, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Anyone can contribute in the YG Smile Anyway, part of this proposal is that only the significant images (= stuff that is not in-game) would be uploaded. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 20:35, March 31, 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I just didn't want to jump into something I wasn't meant to. That sounds like something that would definitely benefit the wiki (imo) and not harm it. Changed to full support :) insaneular Talk 20:37, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - All the compromises have done nothing to address a signifcant concern of the opposition, that Jagex has stated that it is against their rules to use a 3rd party viewer to get at the cache images. If Jagex were to allow use of this viewer in the future, I'd be happy to agree to using these images on the wiki, but until then, it's against the rules. Air rune Tollerach hates SoF Fire rune 19:35, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

why? because you say it is? jagex CLEARLY doesnt know what they are talking about on part of the issue, i think everybody agrees on that. so why assume they know what they are talking about on the rest? i think the rules should be an invalid reason to oppose, as we dont know if it is or not. i know it sounds like it is, but srsly- if jagex made a mistake 1 line before about the same topic what makes u think they arnt making 1 again? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 19:59, April 1, 2010 (UTC)
Its not even that. Its that it is not against the rules period. Calebs question was deceitful in the sense that all he wanted the mod to do was repeat the rules. We all agree that reverse engineering violates the TOS, we all agree (as per the last discussion and the table here) that the model viewer is not a form of reverse engineering. Mod Crowes answer does not apply here.Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 23:25, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Divided - Both the for's and against's in the table are very strong. I'm divided. o_o However, the «Image and media policy: Files obtained from Jagex's game cache are not allowed» isn't valid. In this thread we are exactly trying to change that policy... Book of balance4ndrepd TalkContribsDragon scimitar oldJump to the God Wars II! 18:43, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

against the rules

At 1 point i believed that this was against the rules. however after looking at crow's quote, i find it hard to believe that it is, and at the very least it is not confirmed to be against jagex's rules. Look at the quote, you guys, he says MESSING with the cache. When i hear messing, it normally means more then looking. as in, the science project example: if somebody tells you not to MESS with their science project whist they are gone, you can look all you want, u just cant start taking it apart. Also, he says players can be banned for viewing the cache- which PROVES that he aether doesnt know what he is talking about or is a liar, as IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to find out who is viewing these, unless the users confess to jagex.


if there is anything oli, TE, or i can do to make this more appealing, im sure we will agree to do it. i will give in as much as i can, without making the project useless. i also expect the same from you- give in a little bit. make a comprimise. IT IS UNHELPFUL to simply stand in the way of a good project because of wrong, and possibly non-existant, rules.Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 20:43, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Why are you putting this in a seperate section? Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 20:57, April 1, 2010 (UTC)
that section is getting long, for 1. for 2, i think this is somewhat of a seporate issue- we can still use that to discuss the cache itself and if its a good idea, however, i feel as though the rules debate isnt about if its good for the wiki, if we need it, or anything like that, its more about if you feel as though u can support something that- in your mind- is against the rules. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 21:23, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I strongly urge anyone who has not already read Forum:Reveal leaked info? and Forum:RuneScape Model Viewer = Against the rules to do so, in that order. It would solve alot of the repeating of what has been said on two other threads here. I don't know if I'll be participating in this discussion. Quest point capeLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon 06:30, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Closing I hope no one thinks I am abusing my tools here, but a careful read shows it to be very very clear there simply will not be consensus on this issue at this time. The same arguments are being repeated and re-repeated. So per RS:SNOW and to save heated arguments, I am closing this down. Not happily, but I am sure it is best for us for now.--Degenret01 09:10, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

A seconfd opinion form a neutral sysop says I may have closed it too early, so I al reopening it.

Remember to stay civil. Argue about the merits of the topic, do not attack other posters. Any one doing any flaming or insulting can expect warnings to be followed by a block. We will stay mature and discuss calmly, thank you.--Degenret01 15:30, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

thanks. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 17:53, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Okay, as intresting as the model images are, it's aganist the rules, the models there arn't the finished product and they're just the drafts, If you were writing a story, you wouldn't want someone else to read it in secret and reveal it to the world, would you? Explorer's ring 3Btzkillerv has entered the building! Cape (blue) 20:32, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

if i was wanting something to be kept secret, i would make it so not just anybody could look at it. also, viewing these may or may not beagainst the rules. we dont know. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 21:55, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

...I'm sorry, but that is the DUMBEST thing I've heard today. They've ALREADY said it's against the rules. And really, is it THAT hard to realize and recognize the dangers of getting banned? I'm sorry, but this has gone on long enough for me to totally relinquish any sympathy for anyone who's going to get banned...I,E, if you get banned, I could care less. You're ASKING for it, pretty much! 1iCaxTE.gif --Wine of Good Health (Actually Stinko) 23:35, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
Now, now, let's not get heated here. And, like farcaster mentioned waaaaay up top, he no longer plays RuneScape, so there is no chance of him getting banned. --King LiquidheliumTalk 23:39, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
I could care less if HE doesn't get banned. *I* don't want to get banned from the "guilt by association" thing. In fact, I even clarified what the problem you people are dodging around is:

blaaarghnoobs.png

See that word "Any"? Yeah, that pretty much means "No Exceptions. Period." And if this rages on any more than it has to, I will take it upon myself to go talk to a Jmod somehow and describe the situation to him. THEN we can find out once and for all whether this is allowed. Until then, I firmly believe you MV-supporters are wasting your time and risking your accounts. 1iCaxTE.gif --Wine of Good Health (Actually Stinko) 23:48, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
Be aware that Jagex is aware of this conversation. They are interested in the outcome. This is not speculation.--Degenret01 23:55, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
That's the rationale on which I opposed this (see waaaaaay at the top). However, some people do not believe that it is against the rules. They do have a legitimate argument, so we should hear them out. --King LiquidheliumTalk 23:53, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
dude, keep the personal insults down. how do we know its against the rules? crow lied 1 time, in saying you can be banned for it. UNLESS YOU CONFESS, THEY CANNOT PROVE ITS YOU. period. so, imo, if he was caught being wrong 1 time, and on the same subject, what makes u think he wont be wrong again? also, if they really minded us looking at them, why would they leave them open? im sure they could have it so that we cannot view them. and if me/1 of my supporters gets banned, imagine how bad that will make jagex look- banning based on GUESSES that the name on my userpage is the name of the account that i actually play from. imagine how much in money that will cost the company to have workers digging threw wiki to find out who supported having these, going to their page, looking at the name on the page, seeing IPs and stuff adds up, etc. face it dude, we are not gunna get banned. oh, and liquid, thanks for being willing to discuss this. just wish we could make an agreement or something =/ Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 00:17, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
Stinkowing the screenshot cannot be fairly applied to this discussion and your fears about being banned are unjustified. If you ask a Jmod whether reverse engineering is against the rules or not as Caleb did in that screenshot, obviously they will reply that it is given that it is in their rules and TOS. How can you apply that to this situation if the people with the question about the model viewer are convinced this is not reverse engineering or modifying game code and feel they are being logical and legal and do not believe that there is any evidence that very clearly says that this method is against the rules? If you do talk to a Jmod, try to avoid regurgitating the words reverse engineering, hacking, or messing with the game code as this is not what the model viewer is and you will likely provoke the same reaction Caleb got.

Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 00:25, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Guys, If JaGEx can see if we're using macroing software on our computers, what stops them from finding out if we're implementing the model viewer? Besides, the whole point about it be aganist the rules is that it can be kept as a secret and a surprise when you do find out, if you secretly open your christmas present, the next day it's lost its magic, same way a film you haven't watched is ruined if someone told you its ending.Explorer's ring 3Btzkillerv has entered the building! Cape (blue) 08:21, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
if you dont like spoiled surprises, dont visit the model viewer thread. simple. as for banning, if they can, why havent they? pls find me 1 case of somebody being banned for it. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 16:16, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
Their methods aren't magic BTZ. The reason they can detect macros and bots is because of the same technology that everyone in the world uses and does have limits. Jagex uses what I believe is pattern detection as part of their macro detection system which is what many other MMO's use. Most bots and macros work on the premise of clicking in a series in the same place with little to no variation over and over and over. The way I think Jagex system works is that after you run the bot, the system flags you as being a little too mechanically repetitive or a bot and automatically bans you some time later. A testament to this would be why bots and macros that randomize the time between clicks and keep the space of the clicks random (Clicking a different part of the high alchemy button each time for example) still do not get you banned. The game client does not act in the same way that Spyware would which would allow Jagex to view your browser history, currently running programs which is the only way I can think of they could prove anyone has used the model viewer. That would even be assuming you run the model viewer while the game is running. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 16:34, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Enough.

I'm going to start with the hard legal evidence and move on to morality.

The entire supporting argument is based around the belief that we are not affiliated with Jagex, so we don't have to listen to their rules.

This is true, to a sense. However, supporters have avoided the point that we agree to their terms of service in order to access these files. In their terms of service, it says "You must not reverse-engineer, decompile or modify any Jagex Product client software in any way (except to the extent allowed by applicable law). You must not use a modified/customised version of the client software or attempt to sub-license it.". We have agreed in order to access, and so we legally have to do whatever they say in regards to files covered under their terms of service.

First point from that quote: reverse-engineer. Now, you said they only compress their files with a simple compression algorithm that you can unlock using a third party software. Ok. How about a story. You're heading to a friend's house. The door is locked. You can pick it using a tool. You got in. Just because the lock isn't strong doesn't mean it isn't locked. They don't hand out the files. They don't say we can have accesss to them. The only reason we can access them is by use of a third party software. Just because they're "stupid" and they don't lock it tight enough doesn't mean they don't want you looking at it. Just because we can get to the files easily doesn't mean it's legal.

Second point from that quote: decompile. To decompile is to decompress. The model viewer decompresses the compressed files. End of second point.

Third point from that quote: modify. A supporter made statements about the concept of modding runescape. This is considered modifying it.

Fourth point from that quote: sub-license. The wiki is cc-by-sa. This means that all files on the wiki may be shared and modified so long as there is attribution and the license is passed on to modifications. If we release a licensed image of Jagex's that we get using the model viewer, we are sublicensing it under cc-by-sa. Runescape currently has all rights reserved. If we upload an image, we are giving away the right to modify and share that image. We do not have the right to give away that right. Note to potential counterpoints: screenshots are a gray area lightly covered under the law of fair use. The model viewer is not fair use.

Another argument was that Jagex doesn't own the type of file compression used with Runescape. They do, however, have the right to license their data and tell us not to access it.

Another argument was that it isn't illegal to acces the files because they're already on our computer. It is illegal, again, because we agreed to their terms of service to get those files. They are licensed.

Another arument is that you can't create something with a tool you didn't make and then forbid someone to modify it. You are allowed to create something with a tool you did not create and then forbid people to modify it. It's called licensing. You can license a game. You can license software. You can license books. I didn't invent the pencil, but I can license a story. Licensing. You can't touch it unless I say so. You can't look at it unless I say so.

It's a low blow to try and slant the meaning of Crow's his words. By messing, you say that he means "taking apart." Well... yeah. Using a third party software to decompress the compressed files and access them is taking it apart. It's against the license.

I dislike the idea that "Crow lied 1 time." He did not lie. He clearly stated that any messing with the game code is not allowed and can see accounts banned from the game. I have trust in a game developer to know what a "cache in their computer" is. He knows that Caleb was asking about files stored on Caleb's computer. He knows that those files are not to be touched. They are licensed. A supporter made the point that "Jagex isn't where it is today because they have a bunch of dimwits working the servers." Agreed.

I dislike that supporters continue to ask if there is anything they can do to make this better. You know that opposers disagree with this for legal reasons. Using the fact that they disagree to make them look like they're stubborn or focussed on personal values is another low blow. There is no compromise on the legal issue.

It is not a valid argument to discuss how much money it costs them to find out who we are. It is not valid to argue whether they look bad when they ban based on a guess.

It bothers me when you say "it is impossible to find out who is viewing these." Yes, it is impossible. They have no way of telling if you use the model viewer to get those images. That does no make it allowed.

In close, has anybody asked a JMod if it is allowed to use a third party software to decompress files stored in the Jagex Cache on their computer, accessing them and posting them to a third-party, non-Jagex-affiliated fan site? No? I think you're avoiding something. Viewing the images from the model viewer is one thing, which I hold in the same light as torrenting music; Do it at your own risk, but I'll be damned if I let someone put the wiki at risk. Call me a stonewall. Leftiness 19:13, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Why did you create a new section for your reply? All you have done is create more space. As for your actual reply it seems to be based not so much on legal understanding, but by just aggressively restating what everyone else has. I suggest you take a look at Robert Hornings post in the other thread about the legality of the matter. [2]And now for my own rebuttal:

That would make sense if they have formally requested we remove any images and cease discussion, but even then it would at best be a suggestion as they would have no legal precedence over us. In its current form the Jagex TOS nor any official legal Jagex statements have condemned accessing the games cache illegal or against the game rules. As I have been saying from the beginning, applying the Jagex TOS to something I do not think is reverse engineering, decompiling, or modifying is not an answer at all. Reverse engineering a Jagex tool would be decompiling the codebase to see if there is a way you could create your own version of Jagex server side application in order to run a private server. Decompiling is a term used in programming and is not an over generalized way of saying decompress:

  • "A decompiler is the name given to a computer program that performs the reverse operation to that of a compiler. That is, it translates a file containing information at a relatively low level of abstraction (usually designed to be computer readable rather than human readable) into a form having a higher level of abstraction (usually designed to be human readable)."

Modifying in itself clearly does not apply here as to modify means to change. No data is being changed here, it is being extracted from its archived form.

Your analogy is not applicable to this situation and your conclusion can work either way. Compressing a file is not locking it, thats why there are additional tools available to lock it. The only function file compression serves is to reduce a files size and make loading and transporting it easier and more efficient. Almost all compression tools allow for password protection or file encryption and Jagex already implements server side encryption so it is not a lack of understanding. They have a choice and they choose not to implement the protection that guarantees these files cannot be viewed. Just because the files can be protected and arent doesn't mean it's illegal.

Modifying as I mentioned at the beginning of the very first thread means many things and has become overgeneralized. It could mean a client side only modification using Java that does not require the Jagex game client or Jagex game files to work. However at this point modding Runescape is against the rules as that actually does go against Runescape TOS. The point of that post was to say that awareness of the game cache could cause the more talented users of the Runescape community to eventually create inteface and textures and skins for the game. This would cause Jagex to re-evaluate why they have the rule in the first place (to prevent illegal server emulation) and eventually change their TOS to encourage those mods because they are actually helpful to the community. This does not apply to this discussion.

I am not saying my understanding of the law is a shining example of what is fact, but you cannot simply say something is fact because that is what is suggested by the legal terminology are you referencing. For example its true the wiki uses creative commons [3], but that does not mean anything we use is being reliscensed by us under creative commons as in we are giving something away we do not own. We are still bound by Jagex copyright and all other applicable law like fair use[4] (which I feel applies here) and any pictures we have from the game client or otherwise are cited as something we do not own but simply use for information. A good way to look at that is like this: Are we using Jagex information because we are a genuine nonprofit Runescape resource and simply want to provide the most accurate comprehensive information we can? Or are we trying to steal Jagex works to gain an unfair advantage over other fansites or to sell the information for our own personal gain? The former is fair use and legal, the second is clearly not and also not what this discussion is trying to accomplish. Also, again Jagex has made an official statement on the issue of accessing the cache. If they had we would not be having this discussion now. And liscening is not the same as telling someone they are not allowed to do something with your work. It gives you the ability to tell someone what they can and cannot do with your work within a certain set of legal rights that you have, but just because it is liscensed does not immediately mean one thing or the other. And never does a liscense mean you can throw fair use out of the window. The entire point of fair use is that no matter what the copyright holder says, you can use their work as long as it is actually for fair use.

Without taking his words into context, you cannot know what he says is accurate or true. Simply assuming he is the oracle of truth just because of his Jmod title probably does more harm than good. A Jmod is human, they make mistakes, and cannot always give the best answer to a question on the spot. When a Jmod goes in game and is bombarded by questions like a Jmod almost always is in game, they are required to make answers short sweet and to the point usually by using canned responses. If Mod Crowe comes across a question he cannot answer but can vaguely attribute to some way to game code, he is obviously going to say that messing with it is against the rules per the TOS and ruleset. Restating over and over and over how this is clearly reverse engineering when it is actually not is not going to end this discussion easier. That quote about Jagex not being run by monkeys was mine and it was used to support the argument that if Jagex wanted the cache protected from access they could easily implement it. Hell if they brought me over there I could do it for them and thats saying a lot considering how our of practice I am. Giving an unjustified fear weight by using it as a reason to end this discussion does not mean anything. You admit they cannot ban users who use the model viewer, it was established long ago that it is very unlikely Jagex would take extradordinary steps to shut down the wiki, and we almost all agree that we are legally not stepping on anyones toes. Thats fine if you believe bittorrenting music is always illegal, but bit torrent is by default not illegal. It is simply a protocol used to transfer data. Your problem is thinking in absolutes and almost every issue we are discussing here is not a yes or a no one, there are always additional considerations which we must take into account to make the best decision. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 20:53, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm out of membership, so I can't post on the forums. Can anybody ask a Jmod directly about it? Book of balance4ndrepd TalkContribsDragon scimitar oldJump to the God Wars II! 19:31, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
Jmods have discouraged talking about the model viewer on the forums so I dont think anyone should post again without risking a mute and a thread being closed. I would prefer until we can get some facetime ingame or we wait until I send my letter to Jagex. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 20:54, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
how can you say "crow did not lie" and then go on to say "Yes, it is impossible. They have no way of telling if you use the model viewer to get those images"? CROW SAID IT WAS POSSIBLE TO FIND PPL LOOKING AT THESE, YOU YOURSELF SAID ITS IMPOSSIBLE: which of you is lieing? as for it being allowed, i have 0 respect for jagex and am fine with breaking their rules. thats not saying viewing the cache is breaking rules. oh, and for the record, i have never actually viewed it- tryed once, but it wasnt worth the effort needed. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 20:31, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

your entire argument is that because we play a jagex game, we should do whatever jagex wants us to do.

maby that would be true if we were jagex themselves, but we ARE NOT. rs wikia should follow its own set of rules, not jagex's. we shouldnt encourage scamming or harming other players, as that will harm players. this, however, wouldnt.

we should also look at the damage done vs the gains: as for damage, nothing is hurt exept by viewing the cache. sure jagex may not want us doing it, but why? only because they want to keep their secrets secret. should a news organization only report on its home countrys victorys, whilst ignoring scandals and failures? NO.

regarding gains, i can assure you users would enjoy looking at cache images, speculating on them, posting about them, etc alot more then other things that we have on the wiki. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 20:32, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

"Jagex rules are also enforced on this wiki, and any user who posts information or advice on how to break rules may be blocked from editing." - Rules of RuneScape. HaloTalk 20:57, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
Farcaster, how can you assure us that the average visitor would enjoy seeing cache images on a daily basis? Either you're psychic, or you're grasping at straws in a desperate attempt to ram this proposal past any possible resistance that would prevent this proposal from reaching consensus like last time. I'm more inclined to believe that the latter explanation is true, and not the former. In any case, where do you get off speaking for anyone besides yourself? If you absolutely must pass this proposal into consensus regardless of any and all possible consequences, then suggest a compromise that the people opposing this might agree with, but don't try to pull ridiculously false statements out of thin air to support your opinions. It only makes you look foolish in the eyes of those that you're trying to sway to your cause.
That being said, as long as Jagex doesn't go on a mass-banning rampage of Wiki users and/or retaliates against us by any other means, I'll happily support a compromise just so this heated debate will finally end and all of us would finally be able to get back to the main reason this Wiki was formed: To provide RuneScapians with an accurate encyclopedia on all things RuneScape. Sullivan-1.jpg N7 Elite (Ready to talk now?) 21:04, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
i did not say average visitor, nor did i say daily basis. but think- will less ppl really look at the cache article then ppl who look at this? oh, and pls show me a rediculsously false statement i have posted. lastly, name a compromise and ill agree to it just as i have in the past. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 21:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
It's not about whether people look at it or not. Look at what I posted just above. HaloTalk 21:40, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
tell me one reason for that rule to exist. besides we aready dont follow it. lastly, pls post ur response to this on my talk page. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 22:03, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
It should exist because we want to be on good terms with Jagex. Your second point is stupid. It's basically saying that if someone murders someone else, it's okay for you to murder people too. And finally, as this is the place the discussion is taking place, my responses will remain here. HaloTalk 22:06, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
we are aready hated by jagex. allowing or not allowing this wont change that. if you will not respond on my talk page, i will no longer respond to comments about rules. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 22:08, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
It's not my problem if you don't respond. Just because somebody hates you doesn't mean you should make it worse. Your arguments are really redirects, you are not addressing my points. HaloTalk 22:10, April 8, 2010 (UTC)



I created a new section because the last one was having trouble loading in my browser... It said something along the lines of, "This page is over X kb, so some users might have trouble." I apologize if this was taken harshly.

Robert Horning's first edit was that it isn't against the law. There was no backing up.

His second edit was that it doesn't hut them economically. This isn't the point. Another point was that Jagex will let us know when we've crossed the line. I won't take that risk.

His third edit mentioned what "good fan sites" should do with Jagex's intellectual property. The key here is property. It's licensed. They have the right to determine what fan sites should do. Another point in this edit mentions that we would not be modifying it, only posting it. If this is true and we do not modify it, that's great. We're still violating the sublicensing clause when uploading. It would give the right for someone else to modify it, and we don't ahve the right to give that right. He had a good point in this edit about the illegal use of the runes in the wiki's logo. I agree. He also makes the point that any images uploaded before Jagex made statements about the images are not held to those statements. They can't make a law and then sue us for doing something earlier that is now against that law, he said. However, uploading images now would be against their previous statement which is in effect.

In his fourth edit, he showed their statement saying they have the right to ban us. He then went on to state the intellectual property rights that Jagex maintains. They say in their terms of service, which we agreed to, that they own Runescape in its entirety.

In his fifth edit, he said that it's not illegal, that we can only be in trouble if we post it on the forums. He then said that there is no terms of service problem here. I disagree on the points of sublicensing and decompiling. He then said that it's against copyright laws, but he didn't explain how it's against copyright laws, which he later shows don't apply due to our position as a non-profit organization providing commentary on the game. Therefore, copyright is no longer argued.

Later, he stated that the terms of service simply don't apply. I disagree, again, on the points of sublicensing and decompiling. As he said, Jagex reserves all rights, and, if we upload it to the wiki, we're giving away rights to modify and share the images because everything on the wiki is cc-by-sa. Furthermore, I restate that to decompile is to decompress. He argues that using the model viewer will not get you banned. I disagree on the point of decompiling. He further argues that uploading said images to the wiki will not be banned. I disagree on the points of sublicensing and decompiling. The terms of service do not only apply to the forum. They apply to Runescape in its entirety. He said that raising the issue of a ban is a lie. I disagree on the statement that "In order to prevent or stop any harm or damage to us, to any Jagex Product ... we may Stop ... any or all accounts of a Jagex Product which we think are connected with the offender..." It is considered damage to a Jagex Product when someone decompiles the cache. He attempted to justify his argument, stating that the files in the cache are "released content ... put deliberately there by Jagex." This is true, however this is no defense against the point of decompiling. He used the child friendly term "Eater Egg." I disagree.

Later, he went on to call "the invocation of real-world laws" "scare tactics." Calling it scare tactics is a low blow. Real-world laws need to be "invoked." He went on to call attacking his false logic on the matter of inexperience in legalities "a low blow," citing that he's studied copyright law for 30 years because these sorts of issues are his "bread and butter." On a personal matter, I'd like to know, since he isn't a lawyer, what sort of employment he has. I bet it's in the same gray area we're exploring right now, and he's hoping, for the sake of his family, that no clarity comes into the picture. Since there is no clarity in copyright law, he simply calls the whole thing fallacious, time and time and time again. Again, however, copyright is no longer an issue.

Having read Horning's entire argument, I admit he made points that eliminated many of my worries. However, he also made statements such along the lines of "the terms of service don't apply anywhere but the forums," that don't make sense.

I assert that using the model viewer for your own personal use is against the terms of service on the point of decompiling; uploading those images to the wiki is against the terms of service on the points of decompiling and sublicensing.

Now, it is assumed that Jagex has no legal precedence over us. I disagree on the points of decompiling and sublicensing. In response to the statement that "Jagex has not condemned accessing the cache," I say that in their terms of service they state that "You must not reverse-engineer, decompile, or modify any Jagex Product client software in any way (Except to the extent allowed by applicable law.)" We agreed to the terms of service by playing the game. They gave us the files under protection of the terms of service. The terms of service thereby apply to the jagex cache files accesed by the model viewer. The jagex cache is contained within "any Jagex Product."

Yes, a decompiler is the opposite of a compiler. As was said on another page, the files accessed by the model viewer aren't compressed with ZIP, though it's just as easy to get to, according to them. The images are compiled from human-readable, human-created images that Jagex made with whatever graphics software. They compiled it into this compressed archive which the game reads. The compressed archive is computer-readable. Therefore, the model viewer changes the compressed archive from computer-readable to human-readable. It decompiles it.

The modify point is a subpoint of the sublicensing point. If we upload images to the wiki, we license wiki viewers to share and modify the image so long as they attribute and pass the license along. We would be giving someone the right to modify the image. We don't have the right to give that right.

Whether or not you consider compressing a file in a special archive that you need a special tool to access to be locking it, it is still decompiling. Just because they don't lock it tightly doesn't mean you aren't changing it from computer-readable to human-readable form. You're decompiling it with the model viewer, and that's against the terms of use. It's illegal.

I'll accept your statement that modding runescape doesn't apply to this discussion, however sublicensing the images by putting them on the wiki, as I've said, isn't something we're allowed to do.

I've dropped the issue of fair use, as I've said above. However, the wiki, and everything in it, is licensed cc-by-sa. That would include the model viewer images, if they're uploaded. Uploading would be illegal under the point of sublicensing.

Licensing something, yes, tells them what they can and can't do. When something is licensed, however, it does immediately mean one thing or another. Again, I've dropped the issue of fair use, but the point remains that their license tells us that we can't decompile or sublicense, and it took effect already.

I disapprove of your use of the word fear. Also, I admit that it is very unlikely Jagex will take any steps to do anything against us. Also, the model viewer is not illegal by itself just as bit torrent by itself is not illegal. When you violate a license, terms of use, copyright, etc, the act becomes illegal. Go ahead and use bit torrent to get a linux distribution; use the model viewer for things other than accessing the jagex cache or for doing other legal things. Even if there is absolutely no way for us to get caught and banned, I disagree with this action on the points of decompiling and sublicensing.

Crow did not lie. Any messing with the game code can see accounts banned. Whether or not it is possible for Jagex to find out is not a matter in whether or not they will ban somebody they find doing it.

This Wiki is a non-profit organization which is viewed legally as an entity. It's a person, for all legal intents and purposes. If I use the model viewer to access the jagex cache, I am violating the terms on the count of decompiling. Now, the Wiki can ignore some of Jagex's rules. For example, we can swear here. It's perfectly fine. Jagex can do nothing about it. However, the model viewer involves Jagex's intellectual property, and so Jagex can do something about it because using the model viewer to get images uploaded to the wiki violates the terms of service on the points of decompiling and sublicensing.

The damages vs. the gains are not a valid argument. It is illegal on the points of decompiling and sublicensing to post model viewer images on the wiki. Jagex can keep their secrets secret if they want to, and a news company can report whatever news it wants.

There is no compromise. Don't suggest one. This is illegal. We can provide accuracy without illegality.

I was logged out. Leftiness 22:49, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


Roberts comment about economic harm comes from the actual legal purpose of a copyright. It is to provide an incentive for the owner of the work to go ahead with spending of their own money and time with the guarantee that someone cannot simply steal their work and leave them broke with no monetary benefits. There is zero risk here. If we go over the line Jagex will likely contact wikia and they will relay the message seeing as they are ultimately our host. What makes you think that Jagex would immediately strike against us with ferocity? It makes no legal sense to assume they will demand the wiki be shut down. Several other websites post the cache images freely, even videos on youtube exist [5] of the cache and everyone knows youtube obliges developer requests and takes down offending content first and asks questions later. In spite of that Jagex has taken zero action on all fronts.

No, they have a certain set of legal rights that are limited to their copyright. They cannot demand we do whatever they want, only what we are legally inclined to do. Where are you pulling this sublicensing clause stuff from? You seem to be confusing two separate matters. Jagex copyright on any images from the game follow through to the wikia and everywhere legally allowed. Just because we take the images from the game client and post them does not also mean they are now liscensed under creative commons. It means that whatever works we post are Jagex's and that you may modify it under creative commons within the extent of applicable law, fair use, and Jagex copyright. It does not mean that we are removing Jagex copyright or saying anyone can now use them under the creative commons liscense. Read this page [6] for a better explanation of how copyright and creative commons function together.

Again you are confusing absolutetes. We are not required to follow their TOS past legal obligations and that statement was made to prevent copyright infringement. It does not immediately remove our right to fair use, or their right to liscense it any way they please.

He is absolutely correct, the TOS do not apply to every situation universally. They are a very strict set of legal terms that deal with specific legal matters. You cannot simply criss cross terms just because they are used in official statements. For example just because they say Runescape in its entirety does not mean anything they ever say applies to Runescape in its entirety. Read below for my response on decompliling.

And you were saying I was twisting words to fit my argument? Applying the words compiling and decompiling in the way you intend is nothing more than you trying to force something to be true that is not. You completely skewed the entire definition. The point of saying human readable vs machine readable is that the compiler takes the raw coding used to write an application and compiles it into a form the computer can read at a very basic level. You cannot simply create your own definition of machine readable and apply it to this discussion. And no, file archives and 3d models do not count as non human readable. We use free open source applications and technical methods which Jagex did not create to access the cache. If Jagex used a Jagex only file and encryption no one would be able to use the files. They do not so we can assume that they do not have a problem.

Crow did not lie. Any messing with the game code can see accounts banned. Whether or not it is possible for Jagex to find out is not a matter in whether or not they will ban somebody they find doing it. Oh, what about topics on the forums in which users have asked and admitted to using the model viewer? Heck a Jagex mod even went out of their way to tell the user nothing would happen to them for doing it and simply asked that they do not discuss it on the forum. Jagex is clearly aware of certain users who have used the model viewer via Youtube, this wiki, or other fansites yet have taken no action. They wont do that because I honestly think they could care less what we do with the cache. Thats ridiculous. You just said above that we are to abide by Jagex Rules and TOS because they own Runescape in its entirety. Now why can we ignore a rule like swearing if you are claiming we are to follow a supposed rule about the model viewer? All you are doing is molding everything to fit into your argument without regard to its true legal meaning or purpose. We can ignore the rule about swearing because legally Jagex cannot tell us what we can and cannot say. They legally can tell other people what we can and cannot do with their works within the confines of their copyright. This qualifies as fair use, if this is fair use and you agree to that then how can we not use it. To say that they trump fair use with their copyright shows your dire ignorance of copyright law as fair use exists to prevent copyright owners from infringing on others basic right to information. Im sorry but I will not agree to you aggressively saying something like "This is illegal because I say it is" like you are ending the argument. If thats how you feel fine, but I am going to poke as many holes in a flawed argument like that as I can. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 01:06, April 9, 2010 (UTC)


Oppose - The biggest saving grace, as I see it, would be if the Model Viewer were reverse engineering Jagex's game cache to accomplish interoperability. However, interoperability, as defined by the University of North Texas after considering and combining the definitions of major dictionaries and references, is "the ability of different types of computers, networks, operating systems, and applications to work together effectively, without prior communication, in order to exchange information in a useful and meaningful manner." The files stored on the computer are not an application. They are simply files. This type of reverse engineering does not promote any exchange of information between the RSMV application and any other application. As such interoperability does not apply. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar 00:11, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

If the model viewer is not reverse engineering then why would it need to fulfill the interoperability clause? Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 01:11, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't, I'm just saying that interoperability clause is irrelevant and inapplicable to this argument. Which, as I read through the supporting and opposing arguments, was one thing that would have stopped me from opposing. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar 17:13, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
left, according to you, what breaks real world laws? A) viewing the images B) putting the images on wiki, C) discussing what the images are of. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 00:27, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Viewing the images is legal illegal on the point of decompiling. Putting the images on the wiki is illegal on the points of decompiling and sublicensing. Discussing what the images are of is illegal on the point of decompiling because you can't get those images without decompiling. I apologize for the typo. Leftiness 00:30, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

i dont get that at all. how can viewing but not discussing be legal? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 00:42, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Viewing but not discussing is illegal because Jagex stated in their terms of use that "You must not reverse-engineer, decompile or modify any Jagex Product client software in any way." Viewing the images with the model viewer is decompiling because the model viewer changes the compressed archive from computer-readable to human-readable, which is the definition of decompiling. We agreed to the terms of service by playing. The files are stored on the computer under protection of the terms of use. Therefore, decompiling the compressed archive is violating the terms of service. It's illegal. Leftiness 00:47, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

above u said viewing was legal. and, we are talking about jagex laws correct? not irl ones? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 00:49, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Violating the terms of service is breaking a real-world law. Jagex licensed their product, Runescape, and they reserved all rights. We only have the right to do what Jagex says we can. That includes Runescape in its entirety, not just items in game, or the java applet, but the jagex cache, too. Everything is covered under their terms of service: "... any Jagex Product client software in any way." Leftiness 00:53, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely incorrect, Jagex is not the ultimate authority. They have a set of rights granted to them by their copyright and nothing more. Leftiness I mean this as nicely as possible, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 01:06, April 9, 2010 (UTC)


and if you log into the game without agreeing tos? the cache is put on our comp evey time we log in, correct? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 01:00, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

You agree to the terms of service by creating an account. You agree before you log in. "Your accepting them in full is a condition of your use of a Jagex product (whether or not you subscribe). If you don't agree with any part, please don't accept them or use the Jagex product." Leftiness 01:04, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

i just tried it with the demo- you dont agree to anything for that.Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 01:07, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

"If you don't agree with any part, please don't accept them or use the Jagex product." You don't have to click "I agree." You agree by using the product, Runescape. TEBuddy: Jagex is the ultimate authority when it comes to Runescape. It is theirs. They reserve all rights. Leftiness 01:10, April 9, 2010 (UTC)


TEBuddy: I would prefer if you would edit this page from top to bottom, not out of order. As I said, I dropped the argument of copyright and fair use. That isn't an issue. The issue is the terms of use clause about decompiling and sublicensing. Also, another website breaking the law is not a reason for us to break the law. Furthermore, Youtube is a very large site with many files. Of course they haven't found those videos and removed them, but, again, that doesn't make it legal.


To be clear, I said that I don't care if there is no chance for us to get banned. I also don't care if there is no chance of the wiki being shut down I suspect there is no chance. I am arguing this from a legal standpoint.

I did not say they can demand we do whatever they want us to. As you said, we have to do what we are legally inclined to. We are legally inclined to follow Jagex's terms of service or to not use their product. So says their terms of service, which we agreed to by using their service.

Sublicensing: "You must not reverse-engineer, decompile or modify any Jagex Product client software in any way (except to the extent allowed by applicable law). You must not use a modified/customised version of the client software or attempt to sub-license it." If we post an image to the wiki, we are sublicensing under cc-by-sa because everything on the wiki is cc-by-sa. CC-BY-SA means that it can be modified and shared so long as it is attributed and the license is passed along. We don't have the right to give people the right to modify the images. We don't have the right to view the images, because Jagex stated in the terms of use that we aren't allowed to decompile anything. All rights are held by Jagex.

From a copyright standpoint, as I've said, there is no problem. We are a non-profit organization providing information. The issue is, again, in decompiling and sublicensing.

In there terms of service, which you agree to in order to get the jagex cache on your computer, it says that we are not allowed to decompile. The terms of use apply all Jagex products, including Runescape. The raw coding is computer-readable. Compilers put images, scripts, raw coding, and everything else together in near little subdirectories which are compressed to save space. Runescape does not just pull an image out of a folder and put it in front of you. There's coding that tells the computer to put the image there. Coding is telling the computer what that coding means. Compiling is taking everything something needs to run and putting it in a box. Decompiling is opening that box. Whether or not your tool is free and open-source does not matter. Whether Jagex created it doesn't matter. Again, just because Jagex didn't use a strong (or unique) lock, doesn't mean you aren't picking it.

The reason they use easy to access files is because they made the game in Java so everyone could play it over the internet for free. The Model Viewer uses Sun Microsystem's tools to access those. (Sun made Java.) Yes, those tools are free. No, it is not legal to use those tool to open locks that they tell you not to.

We can swear here because swearing has nothing to do with Jagex's terms of service, or Jagex in general. We cannot post model viewer images here because those files are protected under the terms of service. Again, copyright and fair use are not an issue. The terms of service is.

Also, I did not say "This is illegal because I say it is." I disapprove of your rebuttal. Leftiness 01:43, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

This is a step away from becoming a flame war. Please, stay calm. The demo 3rd age mentioned is a very good point indeed. You don't agree on anything, and the cache gets on your computer. No problem on that. However, the discussion here is not only about the legality, but the ethics. Is it correct to spoil the surprise of, say, unreleased quests? What if we dug into the model viewer and we saw, maybe, Lucien as a quest boss... Have you thought about the implications of that? I don't think some people, or Jagex for that matter, would like that at all... Book of balance4ndrepd TalkContribsDragon scimitar oldJump to the God Wars II! 14:34, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

I won't argue this on an ethical point because ethics are personal and, as such, get us nowhere. This is attested by months of ethical debate. The demo is not a good point because the terms of service state: "If you don't agree with any part, please don't accept them or use the Jagex product." As I've said, you don't have to click "I agree." You agree by using the product. Also, "To use many features of Jagex Products, we require you to create an account. We grant valid account holders a non-exclusive, non-transferable license for the period of membership to use Jagex Products and to download and use our client software and connect to our servers solely to use Jagex Products in accordance with these terms and conditions." The files are, therefore, non-transferable. Should you decide to disagree with the terms, your only option is to stop using the product. The product is defined as "our [Jagex's] online games including all Jagex websites used to play those games." As the cache is a part of the online game, Runescape, you are inclined, should you disagree, to remove those files from your computer. I restate, by using any Jagex product, anything that Jagex made, you thereby agree to the terms. The legal points remain. Leftiness 15:06, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

we dont agree to the terms of service. theres no "i agree" or "i disagree" button with the demo. clear? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 15:48, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

There doesn't have to be an "I agree" button, as I said. You agree by using the product. "If you don't agree with any part, please don't accept them or use the Jagex product." The product is defined as "our [Jagex's] online games including all Jagex websites used to play those games." The demo is a Jagex game. Leftiness 16:01, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

where do you find the 2 quotes? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 16:42, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - This is becoming very tl;dr-ish... Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 16:44, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Request for closure - Every time this comes up, it just goes back and forth for weeks on end. This incarnation is already 94 KB long. He has knocked four times. 16:47, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

I closed it last week and was accused of bias, so I had Q review my close and he agreed it was a bit hasty, it appeared there might be a possible consensus coming. So to stay fair, I reopened it. But I don't even want to read whats been posted since, I can't imagine anything "new" being introduced. Another sysop/crat can review it so my biasedness won't be an issue.--Degenret01 16:55, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - How can this be closed if there is no consensus? The two quotes are in the definitions and applicability sections of the terms of service. You can reach the terms of service by clicking the link at the bottom of Runescape.com. Leftiness 16:53, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

It would be closed under "no consensus/no action" as many other things do. Sometimes we fail to achieve it.--Degenret01 16:55, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
why close? ppl are still posting, not like the topic is gone dead, so that shouldnt be an issue. and we havent reached concen, so thats not an issue aether. lastly, whats it hurting to keep it open? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 17:08, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Neutral - I dislike the concept of closing the discussion based on the policy of "no consensus means the status quo prevails." However, I understand that the discussion has lasted a long time and that the policy is to close it. Leftiness 17:17, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - I don't care about the legality, illegality or morality of this issue. The reality is that much of our content drastically exceeds fair use and is allowed to exist because Jagex turns a blind eye. The Wiki is mutually beneficial. If we start to piss them off for something like this that is only trivially beneficial to the Wiki, they may decide that "live and let live" is the wrong policy to take with us and start to use legal action against the rest of the content. It's just bad business. Endasil (Talk) @  18:11, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

jagex shutting us down would do much more damage to jagex then it would help them. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 18:19, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Comment We probably could have eventually passed this and I still feel that I have done a decent enough job of using reason and the law to prove this should be allowed. In spite of my constant posts though some people still seriously manipulate both of them in order to pass off their arguments as legitimate or use their lack of understanding as their argument and take an overly aggressive defense (I will DIE before I let this pass! I do not want us to get shutdown etc..). As it stands there is too much of a split down the middle for consensus to be reached and I think it would be a relief to everyone to close it and wait until we can get some time with a Jagex mod. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 22:28, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

an idea

at least can the cache have an article? it would simply say the cache exists, and that its loaded onto your comp every time you play rs, etc. it would have NO images, and NO discriptions of images, and it would NOT tell how to view the cache. hows that? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 17:33, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

What would be the purpose of such an article, if not to give tinkering minds a bad idea? I'm sure somebody, knowing that there's this cache on their computer, would google it to see what it is. The Model Viewer would likely surface. Is this indirectly encouraging the breaking of real-world laws? ... The only valid reason I think someone would need to know about it would be to remove it because they disagree with the terms of service. Explain your intent, please. I was logged out. Leftiness 17:47, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

rs wiki is a wiki for everything runescape. the cache is runescape. we cant simply ignore the fact that it exists. also, we do acknowledge the fact that scamming is against the rs rules- im sure tinkering minds could get ideas from that, google "scamming on runescape" and try it out. why can we at least mention other rules but this we have to pretend it doesnt exist? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 18:02, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

At the page (http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/RS:NOT), it states in the "Not for Promoting Rule Breaking" section that "It has been put forward in the past that descriptions of scams may prevent others from being scammed themselves, however this idea has been rejected by the community at large." In the talk page of the "Cheats and Scams" page (http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Scamming), it is mentioned that the article is disputed. I don't think that the argument of "The wiki is for all things Runescape" is a valid argument in regards to the jagex cache. I believe we can ignore the fact that it exists, and I side with the "Runescape Wiki Is Not..." page on the matter of not promoting rule breaking. Whether or not tinkering minds can get ideas from a disputed page is not a reason to make another disputed page. Whether or not there are resources about scamming to be found through Google is also not a valid argument. Leftiness 18:31, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

encourgaging rule breaking is ASKING SOMEONE TO BREAK RULES, not simply discussing rules. and yes, "It has been put forward in the past that descriptions of scams may prevent others from being scammed themselves, however this idea has been rejected by the community at large." WHICH IS EXACTLY why we dont describe scams, and EXACTLY why we dont describe how to view the rsmv. simply mentioning the world "scamming" is encouraging rule breaking in your book, it seems. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 18:43, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with making an article for the Jagex cache. It breaks no policies and you do not need consensus to create one. Anyone who says otherwise will have to start a RFD or discuss on the talk page after you create it, if they have an issue with it. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar 18:53, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

The entire article would be: "Jagex stores a cache on your computer." If there were anything else, I think it would be illegal. In the Deletion Policy (http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/RS:DP), it states that articles should be deleted "If a version of the page has content that can be hazardous to its users or Wikia. This includes but is not limited to: Links to unverified applications, malware, material that is illegal under United States, English, or international law, and the unauthorised disclosure of personal details." Doing anything with the cache except deleting it is illegal. Why do we need to tell them it's there? I'm worried about your intentions; Why do you think that an article would be useful? Leftiness 19:00, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

You need not avoid mentioning that some people use third party software to decompress and view the models contained in the cache. That's no different than saying some people use bots. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar 19:05, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

so, psyco, i can just go ahead and create the article? ill try to keep the information to a minimum, and other editors can add/remove what they want.Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 19:26, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Pretty much any content is fine as long as you don't specifically say how they can access the cache. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar 22:41, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Leftiness, you are taking what is and is not legally allowed and blowing it way out of the water. Please stop posting about legal matters as you have shown your understanding to be incredibly skewed. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 22:28, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I would prefer if you would stop calling me a liar without backing up your opinion. Leftiness 23:07, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I am not calling you a liar. I am saying you misunderstand exactly legally what is right and what is wrong. I proved to you via several resources how this was not copyright infringement, not sub or relicensing based on creative commons, and how our use clearly qualified as fair use, and why Jagex will not and has not taken measures against cache users. You even admit that this is not copyright infringement or a violation of fair use yet keep defaulting to how we violate a specific part of the TOS. The two things are mutually exclusive, we cannot violate their TOS without infringing on their copyright and violating the terms of fair use. So if we are not violating the latter two, their TOS does not apply. Even then for the part of the TOS you are referring to make any sense you need to severely manipulate the definition of compile and decompile which as I said above is ridiculous. Then you continue on about how they have ultimate authority when it comes to their work and how we are required to apply their rules and TOS everywhere when that is clearly not the case because they have a few specific rights granted by their copyright. The thing that annoyed me the most though is how you try to black and white illegal or not illegal something like an article on our wiki based on the Jagex TOS like if we include anything other than the sentence "The Jagex cache is stored on your computer" that it would actually be illegal. That is why I say that you do not understand. I am not trying to insult you, just point out exactly how and where Jagex legal rights and all the licenses actually apply. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 23:19, April 9, 2010 (UTC)


Comment Why doesnt some1 actualy ask a Jmod for a full reponse? {{SUBST:User:H_Fern/sig1/1}} 23:37, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Getting the attention of a Jagex mod is hard enough just to say hi. Trying to get an answer to a complicated issue is incredibly difficult seeing as how they immediately lock and hide any topics that have anything to do with third party software on the forums and generally get swarmed in game by other users. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 23:58, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
Heres what I got when i asked for an official statement or a Jmods take on it, I also included a link to this page: [[File:Jmod response1.png| center |200px]] It looks like she took a look at the page though.{{SUBST:User:H_Fern/sig1/1}} 00:02, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - You have not proved to me that it isn't sublicensing. You gave me a resource that told me what creative commons is. From your source, the goal of Creative Commons is to "increase the amount of creativity (cultural, educational, and scientifc content) available in 'the commons' — the body of work that is available to the public for free and legal sharing, use repurposing, and remixing." Creative Commons licensing is, as your source calls it, “Some Rights reserved.” It gives away some rights while maintaining the rest. Jagex maintained all rights to Runescape. Therefore, we don't have the right to give away some rights by licensing it under a creative commons license. For proof that we would be licensing it under cc-by-sa, click any edit, and look just beneath the blue: "All contributions to the Runescape Wiki are considered to be released under CC-BY-SA." CC-BY-SA, as defined by Creative Commons means this: "This license lets others remix, tweak, and build upon your work even for commercial reasons, as long as they credit you and license their new creations under the identical terms. This license is often compared to open source software licenses. All new works based on yours will carry the same license, so any derivatives will also allow commercial use." That raises another issue: our sublicense would allow people to use Jagex's images commercially. I didn't know that, and I think that means it's against Jagex's copyright because it's definitely not fair use to sell, or allow others to sell, Jagex's files. Regardless, it is sublicensing.

Also, you don't have to violate copyright to violate the terms of service. Regardless of the fact that I now think it's against the copyright due to commercial use, that's ridiculous. Also, ignoring the decompile point for a moment, the terms of service clause covers sublicensing, which I just re-proved to be valid.


Yes, you do have to comply by their terms of service. You agreed to them. I can't stress this point enough, in order to get those files, you have to agree to the terms of service. They are protected under the terms of service. The terms of service, which you agreed to, says you can't decompile or sublicense any Jagex product. The product is defined as any Jagex game or website. The cache is part of any. You apply the terms of service to any. The terms of service is violated as soon as you do something that it says not to do while you are still in agreement with it. If you are in agreement, it is against the law to decompile or sublicense because the terms say not to. If you are not in agreement, then you are legally obligated to stop using the product. That is also in the terms.

In regards to the article that 3rd wrote, it isn't that he said "The Jagex cache is stored on your computer." It's that he mentioned the images, which he said he wouldn't. He also said that the images are good for speculation. He did everything except give them the illegal images, so I consider it wrong. Leftiness 00:39, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - From Licensing#Non-text_files:
Non-text media on Wikia should not be assumed to be available under the same license as the text. Please view the media description page for details about the license of any specific media file.

If you are uploading files to Wikia, you should cite the source of the file, attribute the authors, and note any copyright information, where applicable. Individual communities may elaborate upon and refine requirements for file uploads.

We have several uses of images which are not sub-licensed under CC-BY-SA but are used under a different license as explained on the image page, such as this one. --Quarenon  Talk 00:44, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Quarenon I could not have put it any better myself. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 00:57, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Thank you, Quarenon. I'll admit, I hadn't been to that site. Now, the issue of decompiling remains. You said that my definition of human-readable and computer-readable was twisted, that the compiler takes raw code and makes it computer-readable. I responded with my closed box/open box analogy. Let's take it from there. Leftiness 01:06, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Because it has a strict definition and application. Its not so simple as "Can you read it with your eyes and nothing else" with a yes or no answer attached. Compilers [7] take the code written by a programmer and convert it to machine code for processing at the very basic hardware levels. This is what the terms of service are talking about. The model viewer involved uses no compiling software, decompiling software, or conversion software and because of that is not a violation. Edit: I just re-read your post and saw your open box analogy. It also does not apply as you are lumping two separate things together. The cache is not the game client in its compiled form, the game client is maintained and run from Jagex servers located all over the world. The only thing stored in the cache is textures, images, models and all the other things that are in the already compiled game and do not require compiling/decompiling to access, merely a file archiver. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 01:14, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I admit to downloading RSMV, but not using it; I only read the code of the RSMV software; I did not violate my terms of service. However, I find that the post that I nearly posted is exactly what I am trying to prevent. While I am now certain that the RSMV violates another point of the terms of service along with decompiling, which it also certainly does, I can't explain how without detailing how RSMV works. Anybody can figure out how to run RSMV by reading the post that I wrote and the sources I used to write it. I am at a loss for what to do. I would like to take a minute to again state why the files are so easy to access using a free, open-source tool based off of tools from Sun, the creators of Java. The files are easy to access because Jagex made the (in my opinion honorable) decision to make a game in Java. The game is made in Java so that it works across all operating systems and is accessible with a web browser. They could have made a game client. They could have used unique encryption. They didn't do that because that would have forced people to download a client. They want Runescape to be easily accessible to anyone, anywhere, regardless of the machine's operating system or computing power. Leftiness 02:39, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately that carries no weight and again you are wrong about the client anyway. They already implement server side encryption to prevent people modifying the packets transferred between server and client. They implement encryption in the other cache files to prevent people from using custom files in the actual live game client. They could easily implement encryption to prevent people from accessing the files viewed from the model viewer and it would not require they rewrite the game and use another form of client. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 03:19, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - All right. I figure this is a good way of making a point: I'm sure you've downloaded RSMV.rar, TE, since you defend it so vehemently. Open RSMV.rar, and then open Main.java with Notepad, or a Notepad-like program, if you use another operating system. Scroll down to the bottom of Main.java in your Notepad. "private static String address = "world169.runescape.com";" This is the server that the author of my source set RSMV to download the cache from. Your source may have set it to download from another place, but, regardless, jagex_cache_32 is not the preferred way of accessing the models. Jagex_cache_32 contains the entire cache: frequently used models, text, and code. RSMV acts as the Runescape client to download those files, and it stores the models in the "models" folder of RSMV.rar. Accessing the server with third party clients is against the terms of service. "You must not use a modified/customised version of the client software." Your opinion? Leftiness 16:36, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Afterthought - How would Jagex implement encryption of the models without requiring a special client to decrypt them? The files are already written from compiled Java, requiring decompiling by a Java Client to use. Runescape is Java, so any other type of encryption would require decryption back to compiled Java, which is a client. Else, it would require that Runescape be written in something other than Java, some special, unique language that they would theoretically create. This language would be compiled and run on the machine. It would only require a client to decompile and run, not decryption and a decompiling client. Regardless, Runescape is written in Java, and any encryption/decryption requires a client. The files in the cache are not encrypted; they are compiled Java. I believe that they have server-side encryption. Server-side encryption requires a decryption client on their server, so we wouldn't have to download anything for that. Leftiness 18:34, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

We already covered that in previous thread. The model viewer is downloaded with the client version it downloaded when it was released. In order to obtain the most recent client that contains the latest cache files it connects to a world to download it. You could skip this step and use the model viewer as is. Aside from that, the RSMV does not access Jagex servers in the sense the terms of service refer to which is with the goal of using a modified client to play the game or to determine how the Jagex server software works with the goal of creating your own version of it for personal or commercial use. All it does it open a connection exactly like a web browser or the Runescape client would which is perfectly legal. It would likely even work for the instant demo that you are not required to accept any terms or agreements to use.

I really don't understand where you make these scenarios about Java up. Why exactly if you don't mind explaining this to me, if something is created and archived in Java it has to be decompiled with Java and the encryption can only be made with a unique Java language that also required a separately created client to unpack? That is the most convoluted thing I have ever read. The way Runescape works right now is that when the game first loads on your computer it loads the compressed form of most of the required data into the cache. This compressed data uses a form of file compression standard of Java which Jagex did not create. When the client needs those files is when you see the loading screen across Runescape as you move around and it decompresses those files on the fly and brings them into memory for quick loading. If there was an added layer of security as in file encryption on each archive, all Jagex would need to do is change their server to distribute cache files with a key on them that only the server software would have and could open. That way when the server requests the files for quick loading it also uses the key it has to decompress the files it needs. Users could no longer access the files on their end using RSMV, and no one else is affected. There would not need to be an additional client and some theoretical language to create. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 21:23, April 10, 2010 (UTC)


Comment - I read up on the issue of compiling and decompiling. Runescape is a Java Virtual Machine, by definition: it runs java code as if it were your computer, but it runs the code over the internet. Since Runescape is a JVM, Runescape uses Java Bytecode, per (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bytecode): "Examples of bytecode include Java bytecode, which is executed by the Java virtual machine." Just-in-Time compilers, as also defined at that wikipedia article, translate the Java bytecode into machine language as necessary at runtime. That's the Java loading screen you get when you start Runescape; it's compiling bytecode, telling the computer what to do. This is all supported by another quote from that wikipedia article, "Java and Smalltalk code is typically stored in bytecoded format, which is typically then JIT compiled to translate the bytecode to machine code before execution." The on-the-fly loading of Runescape is also JIT; it stops the game for a moment, compiles some code, and starts the game back up.

By the above argument, I assert that the cache is bytecode with something(s) done to it. Now, I'm assuming you're correct about the cache files being the same at the server and the computer. The cache files are of the .idx, .dat, and .so file extensions. .idx is a compressed language. It's used to speed up the data retrieval of a database. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDX_(file_format) ). .dat is the database containing all the files. According to Morgalr, a seemingly knowlegeable person who holds a respected position in the forums at Sun.com, "If you're following a way to cheat in the game, then just out and out admit it, but as stated, caching is a very simple thing to do and the DAT files you are talking about are proprietary file formats created by Jagex. Pick your own format you wish to support for your own games and have fun. The Jagex file formats are not published so it will, at least marginally, suppress cheating." (http://forums.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=5416483) The Jagex client takes these proprietary databases, pulls data from compressed .idx files, and uses them to run the game quickly. RSMV (figured out that proprietary format) takes that compressed data, decompresses it, and views it. I'm unsure if the files are compiled at this point because I'm not opening them to see if they are, but the fact that compile.bat exists in RSMV.rar seems to point to this being true. I admit that this part of the post could be complete rubbish because I'm basing it off of your statement that the files are the same and a random, if intelligent, user of Sun's forums. This leaves the .so file extension undiscussed. I traced .so to Executable and Linkable Format (ELF), which is used by Linux. I couldn't really make sense of it being there, except by the fact that I use Linux. I know that Jagex detects the operating system... Do you have libjaggl.so? What is your opinion about the proprietary status of the .dat files?

I'm unsure if encrypting the files would be this simple; however, it doesn't matter if it is, per my weak/non-unique lock argument. To restate another old point of mine, I still believe that to decompress is to decompile because a compressed file is a simpler language for the file. To make something a simpler, smaller language from a more complex, bigger language is compiling by definition.

"The model viewer is downloaded with the client version it downloaded when it was released." If that's true, then you're violating the non-transferable part of the license. The non-agreeing person people don't have a license to have the cache files because licenses to have the files and use the game are granted to those who create accounts and agree to the terms. Therefore, they have those files illegally. Upon disagreement, you're obligated to remove the files. Also, if you skip the illegally connecting to a server part, you're still decompiling.

You aren't allowed to use a modified version of the client. Period. The client is Jagex's Java applet at Runescape.com that reads the files and compiles on your computer so your computer can play the game. The RSMV is a client that connects to the server, just as Jagex's client does, reads the files, compiles them on your computer, storing them. RSMV is a modified version of the client, so it's against that part of the terms, too.

It does not open a connection like a web browser. A web browser loads Jagex's client at Runescape.com to access the server. RSMV is a third-party client that simply accesses the server. This is illegal because you're only allowed to access the server with the Jagex client.

Again, you accept the terms by using the demo because you accept the terms by using a Jagex product. The demo is a Jagex product as defined by the terms. If you don't agree to the terms, you are legally obligated to not use any Jagex product, which includes removing the cache files because the cache files are part of any Jagex product.

I also found this site's splash screen intriguing: (http://www.moparisthebest.com/). I've been able to read bits and pieces of their posts without agreeing to their terms by googling things. It shows up in the preview. Though I doubt that it's legal for them to have that terms of service, they use the term "decompile." A lot.

I've also begun to feel as though this issue cannot be decided without the input of an experienced Java coder, a Court of Law, and maybe someone from Jagex, depending on the status of the .dat file. Leftiness 00:32, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

And according to georgemc in that same thread : "What you're looking at is just a binary file of some sort or other. It might well be a zip or some other kind of archive.". Most of those guys also admit to not knowing anything about Runescape anyway and would hardly be the proper people to consult. My knowledge of filetypes is that actual proprietary formats are encoded to be unreadable by any software other than that used to create it. If the cache files were truly proprietary then there is no way RSMV would actually be able to decompress them and we would not be having this discussion. This leads me to believe that the .dat files in the cache are compressed using an odd or unusual compression algorithim which is not be confused with encryption and why RSMV can decompress the files for viewing because that algoritihim is available for free. This is all moot however because we are speculating.

Im sorry but that is not an argument at all. Compiling and decompiling are specific in their usage and as I said above just because you believe that decompressing a file archive counts as decompiling does not mean you can apply it here. Also the RSMVs compile bat file is to compile what I believe is the model viewer itself, not decompile or compile data it retreives from the server. You can prove this by using the model viewer without having the Java SDK installed (the compiler needs the sdk to compile a new java program) and still using the model viewer to view data.

No, the terms of service do not mean you are legally required to do anything other than what is stated in that agreement. There can be no other legal repercussions for anything not mentioned in the TOS. So for you to say that you are legally required to do anything after Jagex has chosen not to persue action for a claimed infraction on those terms is incorrect.

A web browser opens a connection in the exact same way any other program does, and in the same way the RSMV does. Your computers address (IP Adress) makes a request to your router or modem which send the request to the host server (Runescape.com or 82.211.114.127), which receives the request and processes it and sends your modem or router a reply which sends it back to your computer. Jagex terms refer to using a modified game client to intercept the encoded data between Jagex servers and clients with the intent of reverse engineering the encryption used and subliscening it to make profit or provide a private Runescape server not owned by Jagex. They do not refer to any modified client such as Swiftkit, RSMV, or a program I may write myself that access Runescape from a window that access the Java applet to download the necessary cache files to run the game.

Which has no meaning in this discussion. The author of the model viewer is not exclusively involved with moparisthebest.com and if he agreed to those terms does not violate the Runescape TOS. If they do not require you to break the law by agreeing to their TOS, they can put whatever they want into it and you are legally binded to it if you agree.

This will likely be my last post unless some new developments come up as I don't really feel like discussing it further and it seems not many others are interested given how long this thread has been open. I am going to finalize my letter to Jagex and hopefully have it sent by Monday and maybe that will get us a good reply. Cap and gogglesTEbuddy 03:45, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - The .so files are shared object files used by Linux. Windows platforms instead have .dll versions which are equivalent in functionality. While I can only speculate on the exact functions of the other DLL/SO files, the jogl.dll/so and jogl_awt.dll/so are most definitely Java OpenGL bindings used for 3D graphics acceleration. These two files can be downloaded under an open source license at http://jogl.dev.java.net/. --Quarenon  Talk 00:46, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

how do you accept the terms by using a jagex product? thats like lending somebody a car and then saying because u borrowed my car you agreed to do whatever i want for a week. if you are going to ask somebody to agree to something, its best if you tell them what they are agreeing to. how is the average person supposed to know they are agreeing to stuff by playing rs? its not said anywhere whilest logging in... Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 00:44, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - You are expected by law to read terms of service. In the Miniclip terms of service, "By viewing or accessing Miniclip SA’s Miniclip.com website, and/or using Miniclip SA games, software, applications, products or services you expressly agree to the following Terms and Conditions detailed below." Also, "RuneScape is owned and operated by Jagex Inc. from Jagex Inc. servers. Club Penguin is owned and operated by Disney Online Studios. Puzzle Pirates is owned and operated by Three Rings Design Inc. from Three Rings Design Inc. servers. Third party product, games or services may have additional terms and conditions associated with them." The additional terms and conditions are the terms that Jagex sets forth here, that "Your accepting them [the terms] in full is a condition of your use of a Jagex product (whether or not you subscribe). If you don't agree with any part, please don't accept them or use the Jagex product." I summarize: All of this means that by using Miniclip's games, you agree to Miniclip's terms, which state that you have to follow Jagex's terms when playing Runescape, which state that you accept Jagex's terms by playing Runescape, wherein it states that you can choose to accept these terms or choose to not play. You don't have to be informed while logging in. Jagex takes a much less "Slimeball" approach to it: when creating an account, there is a checkbox that says "I have read and agree with the Terms & Conditions." The privacy policy is also mentioned. Leftiness 02:19, April 11, 2010 (UTC)


Comment - I hope that you continue discussing it. I feel as though we're getting somewhere. We're definitely getting into more complex and specific arguments. Also, would you mind showing me what you've written to Jagex?

"If the cache files were truly proprietary then there is no way RSMV would actually be able to decompress them" I disagree. By decompiling the program used to create those files, you could, of course, create another program to decompress them.

I agree about the speculation point, though I highly doubt that the archives are free. I'm using file-roller, which is known to access a lot of stuff, and it's not opening. It's an open-source program , so anything free is added whenever possible so that it can compete with proprietary programs.

"Also the RSMVs compile bat file is to compile what I believe is the model viewer itself." I disagree. RSMV.exe is already-compiled code used to run the model viewer. When it says you don't have Java, it seems that it's connecting to the server and can't understand the Java from the server.

My point is that it is mentioned in the tos. Jagex does not have to legally act on your actions for them to be illegal. This clause from the license states: "We grant valid account holders a non-exclusive, non-transferable license for the period of membership to use Jagex Products and to download and use our client software and connect to our servers solely to use Jagex Products in accordance with these terms and conditions." This means that you are not allowed to transfer the files to a non-agreeing person because the non-agreeing person does not have a license to have those files. This is the same as the torrenting issue: people who torrent do not have a license to have or use the music because licenses are given to people who buy it. Furthermore: "Please read these terms and conditions carefully. Your accepting them in full is a condition of your use of a Jagex product (whether or not you subscribe). If you don't agree with any part, please don't accept them or use the Jagex product." You have to accept the terms in full to use the product. If you don't agree to the terms in full, you aren't allowed to use the product. The prodcut is "used as shorthand for our online games including all Jagex websites used to play those games." Therefore, as the cache is part of the game, it is the product, and it is not allowed to be had without a license, which is granted to people who agree to the tos. Again, it is stated in the tos.

I think Swiftkit is allowed. It's just a web browser with an mp3 player attached and what not. However, the web browser loads the Jagex client. We are only allowed to use any part of the Runescape game with the Jagex Client found on Runescape.com. RSMV accesses the server separately, if you choose to access the server, not just use the cache. It is not allowed to access the server with anything but the Jagex Client. As RSMV is not the Jagex client, it isn't allowed to access the server with RSMV. By their third party software policy, "Software that attempts to communicate directly with our game worlds" is not allowed. "Software that monitors, modifies or decrypts the communications between our game applets and our game worlds" is not allowed. RSMV can also simply decrypt the cache, which is part of the communication between Jagex's client and the Server, therefore I assert that it is not allowed to access the cache even if the cache is a ZIP archive, which it isn't.

Until you prove to me that the compression/encryption/compilation algorithm is free, I'm not even going to view your arguments very seriously. So far, it appears to me that RSMV is the only software besides the client capable of getting to the cache, which makes me believe RSMV is a modified version of the client, and it is therefore not allowed. Figure out what type of compression/encryption/compilation is used, then we'll talk about this.

"If they do not require you to break the law by agreeing to their TOS, they can put whatever they want into it and you are legally binded to it if you agree." Exactly. Leftiness 16:22, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

You forget two things.
1) Firstly, contract law in the US and Great Britain is based on the concept that the two parties to a contract have equal negotiating power. This is obviously not the case here; you cannot bargain with Jagex on the terms of the contract. That is grounds, historically (and as has been shown in hundreds if not thousands of court cases) for being able to ignore certain parts of, and legally contest, what are called "boilerplate contracts" (ie: the Jagex ToS).
2) With regards to "breaking the law": in fact, they do require you to break the law. Jagex (or any other entity) cannot take away your legal rights in any kind of contract: you are breaking the law by signing away your legal rights. Those legal rights include the rights to fair use, which are an integral part of US copyright law and Great Britain's copyright law, and which contradict Jagex's ToS.--Agamemnus 07:01, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

*facepalm* - 131 KB now, and we're nowhere near anything remotely resembling a consensus, mostly because it seems to be two people going back and forth, back and forth... He has knocked four times. 16:24, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

and why do you want it closed? is it hurting you somehow? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 18:09, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
Here is my problem with the whole thing: Some administrators on this wiki (you know who you are) have been deleting images from the model viewer uploaded to this wiki with the presumption that current policy prohibits the displaying of these images. I would argue on the contrary that such a policy was never enacted in the first place and this is merely the supposed on the part of a few very active individuals. The purpose of coming to a consensus here is to try and perhaps recover some of these deleted images, and provide some sort of formal policy for what should happen to images that come onto this wiki in this manner. What happens to those images, and do we get into a wheel war over deleting and undeleting these images, banning and unbanning admins on this wiki with admin rights getting nuked too? That is ultimately the casualties that can happen from a lack of consensus on this issue, including bent feelings with participants getting disgusted with the whole thing and choosing not to contribute to this wiki any more... regardless of what policy happens here.
I, for one, would like to be cautious in terms of creating a policy that offends some segment of our community, no matter how small that segment might be. Unfortunately in this case, a policy does need to be made, and no matter what the decision there will be some significant (meaning more than just a couple) participants on this wiki who will be so upset with the decision that they will no longer be participating. The decision to delete these images that has been happening is already causing damage and making this wiki a very hostile place to edit, so I would argue that segment of the wiki editing community is already gone or at least will be harder to recruit back into the fan base that is editing here.
The easy decision to make here is to formalize the policy of a complete ban of images from the image viewer. As that has become in effect the de facto policy, it isn't rocking the boat too much here. Still, it seems like a shame that the reasons for this to be policy are based on mis-informed statements and because of personal feelings and not due to actual legal principles. I also hate the idea that we are closing ourselves on this wiki to content strictly because of the feelings of a few participants here. The resistance here is that anything which establishes a policy to permit model viewer images on this wiki, no matter how limited or restricted, is in effect a change of policy after a fashion.
This is also why this is creating flame wars and megabytes of textual content about this topic. --Robert Horning 00:10, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Well spoken, Robert. Couldn't of said it better myself. Fruit.Smoothie 04:14, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

so the only problem is bent feelings with participants getting disgusted with the whole thing and choosing not to contribute to this wiki any more? if people dont want to continue arguing, they can simply LEAVE. and, ppl being mad about the result will ONLY happen if cache images are continued to be banned. correct me if im wrong, but it seems as though most of the supporters dont mind the images, they just feel the need to blindly follow jagex's rules. keep in mind this is all just guessing, but if we were to prove that it wasnt against jagex's rules OR we were to find a way around the rules without the wiki being in danger both sides would be happy. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 14:49, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Robert: I disapprove of using such images on the wiki without proof of legality. If it's proven that it's completely legal to access the images and post them, then I understand that they will benefit us. Personally, I'm of the opinion that a world-wide gaming giant like Jagex wouldn't put a cache on your computer without legally covering themselves; I'm sure they know what the cache is and that it can be accessed. By "they" I of course mean a programmer or something, not necessarily a customer support person. I've come to the conclusion that both sides are represented by misinformed statements and personal feelings, not actual legal principles. Therefore, I feel it's necessary to solve this issue that a programmer and lawyer give their input.

3rd: I'm not going to leave. People will be upset about a decision in only one direction, as I see it: if the images are proven legal, then both sides will be happy. This isn't a personal vendetta of mine; I'm not out just to "beat" you; I want what's best for this wiki. I assert that most people currently opposing the use of the cache images would support using them if they were proven legal. The legality is the argument, as I see it. I disapprove of your use of the word "blindly." I think I've clearly presented that I am not blindly following rules. I have argued, debated, disputed... This is not blind. I restate that I would not be happy just by finding a way around the rules without the wiki being in danger. I assert that many others would also not be happy. Leftiness 21:23, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

BTW, I provided proof in the form of chapter and verse from the United States Copyright Code (including sections from the Sonny Bono Copyright Act, as ammended) in previous threads, and pointed out how this wiki falls under the jurisdiction of the USA as that is where the servers for Wikia happen to be physically located. If Jagex or anybody else wants to invoke copyright law to remove content, it will have to be done with a U.S. Federal Court and through procedures spelled out in U.S. law. I contend that it is perfectly legal, and spelled out plenty of reasons why. Legality was something I thought was amply decided and that was a moot issue at this point. This isn't reverse engineering (the posting of such images on this wiki), and if so it isn't us on this wiki that would have to face the legal consequences of that reverse engineering either. I'll even go one step further and help those who get banned as a result of uploading images to this wiki to find some legal counsel to get their accounts unbanned. If you are also being an idiot and doing other things to get you banned, I can't help you, but for this one reason I believe you are incredibly safe. I said help, and I think you would have a really good case... particularly if you are a "member". Yes, there is legal precedence to "force" a company to unban a user that didn't really violate the terms of service. All of the legal posturing here is just fear mongering and nothing more.
As for people being upset and threatening to leave, it has already happened. You can go through the previous threads and see if some individuals are still participating or not, but it can and has happened. I certainly can't "force" people to participate, and this is certainly a volunteer activity. Volunteers are always fickle in any setting, and this one in particular is a sensitive issue.
Again, the "ethics" is something that certainly can be debated. Is it right for us to be uploading these images, based on "revealing future content" (aka spoilers), encouraging folks who "hack" the RS user client, and to be doing something we are pretty sure that Jagex really doesn't want us to be doing? Ethics is not the law, and that is something wholly different.... something I believe to be missing from this discussion entirely. I mention the law, and the law is clear, but just because something is legal doesn't necessarily make it right. For myself, I could care less about what Jagex really thinks about this so I am not really concerned about their opinion on this matter. I don't even think it is worth asking Jagex for permission on this issue as it is something they would likely say no to anyway, but they really can't stop us either. The only real issue that is of merit is the concern about encouraging the hacker underground that is related to Runescape and for us to be tacitly, no matter how minor, be encouraging that sort of activity to continue and to gain "profit" in some manner from that activity. No matter how Jagex wants to bury their head in the sand (at least publicly), the hacker culture certainly thrives and is quite diverse. I would love to argue this point more, but this is at least a starting point to go from, rather than rehash the same old arguments over and over again. --Robert Horning 01:04, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
we reveal quests dont we? this is no different, and u dont have 2 visit the article if u dont want spoilers. we wouldnt be encouraging hacking, unless the article itself says "runescape wiki needs you to vew the rs cache" or something of the equivilant.
imo, jagex aready hates us. thus, since they are choosing not to support us, we can choose to not respect them without doing anything wrong. yes i am strongly anti jagex, but you cannot denie the fact that jagex is out for themeselves, and the fact that they are not treating us the way they should.Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 01:18, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
  • Further Commentary --- I think Jagex is shooting themselves in the foot in terms of failing to recognize this website as a fansite, as the threat to revoke that recognition would be a much more useful tool in terms trying to influence policy on this wiki than giving a nebulous reply for what we need to accomplish in terms of "recognition". By failing to recognize us, it actually is encouragement in my opinion to be even more independent and indeed push a bit harder for things like displaying these images from the RSMV.

As for the spoiler policy, that seems to be the other strong argument against using these images, yet such a philosophy does fly straight in the face of other similar kinds of content coming from other sources including official forum commentary by j-mods, fan site interviews, and content published by the "gaming press". All of this has been used in the past for displaying spoilers, and indeed images from the model viewer were used at least temporarily (until those images were deleted) to illustrate and add commentary to some articles about upcoming and future content on this wiki. I really don't buy that argument at least as it isn't consistently applied here. I used the example of the Music cape and the Dragon pickaxe as good examples, as those articles predated their introduction, and indeed the pickaxe article predated the actual release not by a few days but by years.

I have suggested that most of the images, including that of the version of the music cape and the dragon pickaxe as seen in the model viewer, were published on other fansites and on places other than simply by a member of the wiki community using the model viewer. In other words, those pictures were already "out there" in general circulation and the inclusion of those images here on this wiki is merely fair-use. It is this that I am talking about here, and all of the complaints about reverse engineering is really irrelevant to this discussion. The only minor point is if by displaying images from the model viewer, are we as a wiki community potentially encouraging continued "hacking" into the Runescape user client interface by displaying these images? On the other hand, how can this be considered a wiki about Runescape that attempts to be a complete source of information that pretends these images don't exist either? -Robert Horning 09:49, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

imo, it is just the opposite. if the images are all here, why waist ur time digging into something only to see stuff we aready have? viewing it on the wiki would be a way for people who dont want to break rules, dont want to waist their own time, or simply want the images from a site they know wont have fakes. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 13:05, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
The original proposal I made, back elsewhen, was to permit the uploading of images that we don't have, of items that exist only within the RS model viewer. Various other kinds of minor tweaks to this original philosophy have also been proposed, but even this incredibly limited viewpoint and application is something that has been and is continued to be fought against. The images have been uploaded, but they have also been deleted upon even merely the suspicion that they have been extracted from the model viewer, or subject to a painful VfD that essentially rehashes all of these arguments all over again.
Again, what rule is being broken here, especially (as has been the case for the original music cape and dragon pickaxe) when they are on other fansites like tip.it and the site formerly known as Truthscape? I am talking widely posted images here too, but ones that somebody can verify that "yup, it is in the model viewer too" or something like that independently? The reverse engineering, if done, was done by those who wrote the model viewer software, not those who are using it or those who are secondary or tertiary users of images that were derived from that model viewer. I agree, those who may want to see these images without breaking the rules could come to the RS Wiki to see what everybody is talking about, or look at prototype designs that Jagex may have "leaked" in the models before the item was released. --Robert Horning 20:17, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

continued...

im not saying ur doing it simply 2 be a pain, i know- err, think, you feel as strongly about it as i do. i also didnt really mean u when i said blindly- the irl legal is a real arguement imo, the "lets not do it because that would hurt jagex's feelings" isnt. however, we both know jagex wont do anything to the wiki, even if we break the rules. we also both know- i think we both know at least- that jagex could stop us the average player from looking at them if they wanted to. but they arnt, so, imo, its not a big deal. i must admit, however, even if it something that they really didnt want us 2 do, id still do it. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 00:21, April 14, 2010 (UTC)


oh and this is a new section because i was lagging slightly with that other 1. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 00:22, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Support - very heavily, I might add. You can quite clearly see that the arguments on the "For" side of the chart are fairly more than the arguments on the "Against" side. All the opposers are saying that basically:

  1. We have to follow Jagex's rules.
Will we follow Jagex like a pet dog, following it's master's every order? Or are we independent, seeking simply to be the best fansite through extensive coverage?
  1. It's immoral to.
How? HOW?

Hello7101:56, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

More =/= Better. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 08:26, April 14, 2010 (UTC)


Comment - I've asserted several times that I believe acessing the cache to be illegal. I stress that I assert this, meaning that it is my opinion. It has not been proven. However, unless it is proven legal, I disapprove of using the images on the wiki. I can't stop you from viewing them personally.

Robert: I agree that it is reverse engineering to access the cache. However, I disagree that uploading those images to the wiki is perfectly safe or legal. I assert that accessing the cache is illegal. Therefore, being in possession of the accessed cache images is illegal. Therefore, uploading them to a website is illegal. Whether or not I or any other user will face consequences is not important to me.

On the statement of not violating the terms, I disagree. If you agreed to the terms by playing, then you cannot access the cache. If you received the files from someone, they violated the terms by transferring, and you don't have a license to have the files. If you connected directly to the server, you didn't have the right to. You cannot get the cache files without violating some law somewhere. On the point of forcing Jagex to un-ban you, I assert that they maintain the right to ban people on these terms, which, I assert, include accessing the cache:

  • "If, acting reasonably, we consider that our Terms and Conditions have or may have been breached, or that there has been fraudulent, unlawful or abusive activity, or that it is necessary in order to prevent or stop any harm or damage to us, to any Jagex Product, to other players or the general public, we may Stop (as defined above) any or all accounts of Jagex Products which we think are connected with the offender subject to such right of appeal as is specified on our website and/or restrict access to or delete JCredits or anything acquired by means of JCredits. Such actions may result in loss of membership credit and/or loss of real money paid as part of any item / account trading or other prohibited transaction."

I also disapprove of your use of "fear mongering." Fear mongering is used to take advantage of people. I have legitimate concerns.

I'd like to get this out of the way: I'm perfectly fine with revealing future content; I have no trouble with it. If people don't want to see it, they shouldn't be looking it up. I also don't think it would be necessary to ask Jagex for permission, except that I believe the files to be illegal. However, unless this issue is proven legal, I oppose using the images on the wiki because it condones an illegal activity. I don't care if I'm not going to get in trouble. I don't care if the wiki isn't going to get in trouble. I oppose condoning an illegal act.

3rd
: As I said, I would not oppose using the images if I believed them legal. However, using an illegal image is condoning the illegal act. Also, Jagex not supporting us is no reason for us to break real-world laws, and it doesn't matter if they're out for themselves.

Robert
: Again, Jagex not supporting us is no grounds for us to break real-world laws, and, again, I would support the use of the images if I did not believe them illegal. Furthermore, it is not fair use to put an illegal image on your website, whether or not other sites have it circulating. Fair use is an exception to copyright law, not anything else. On the point of "are we encouraging it:" Yes; by using images gained illegally from RSMV, we are condoning RSMV. On the point of "complete source of information:" providing illegally gained information on account of this argument is, in my opinion, RS:GTS.

3rd
: I question the legality of viewing illegal images. Can you prove that it's legal to view illegal images? I don't think that they could act against an innocent viewer. However, I'm unsure. Also, I disapprove of breaking a real-world law because Jagex failed to put a proper lock on the files.

Hello
: I disagree. Leftiness 21:25, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Let's see:
Robert: I agree that it is reverse engineering to access the cache. However, I disagree that uploading those images to the wiki is perfectly safe or legal. I assert that accessing the cache is illegal. Therefore, being in possession of the accessed cache images is illegal. Therefore, uploading them to a website is illegal. Whether or not I or any other user will face consequences is not important to me.
WHY IS IT ILLEGAL? You used the term 'legal' 4 times in there, without explaining why it is LEGAL or ILLEGAL.
On the statement of not violating the terms, I disagree. If you agreed to the terms by playing, then you cannot access the cache. If you received the files from someone, they violated the terms by transferring, and you don't have a license to have the files. If you connected directly to the server, you didn't have the right to. You cannot get the cache files without violating some law somewhere. On the point of forcing Jagex to un-ban you, I assert that they maintain the right to ban people on these terms, which, I assert, include accessing the cache:
  • "If, acting reasonably, we consider that our Terms and Conditions have or may have been breached, or that there has been fraudulent, unlawful or abusive activity, or that it is necessary in order to prevent or stop any harm or damage to us, to any Jagex Product, to other players or the general public, we may Stop (as defined above) any or all accounts of Jagex Products which we think are connected with the offender subject to such right of appeal as is specified on our website and/or restrict access to or delete JCredits or anything acquired by means of JCredits. Such actions may result in loss of membership credit and/or loss of real money paid as part of any item / account trading or other prohibited transaction."
I also disapprove of your use of "fear mongering." Fear mongering is used to take advantage of people. I have legitimate concerns.
You are mixing up the terms, "law" and "rule". A LAW is something dictated by the GOVERNMENT. A RULE is something dictated by JAGEX. Now, clearly the GOVERNMENT = JAGEX. Now, also, will they ban some hundreds of users of the RuneScape Wiki simply based on what they say on their userpages? Will people fake their in-game usernames to get other people banned? My opinion is, if Jagex is stupid enough to do that, (and yes, that is 'foul language'), it's not worth making a wiki for their stupid game by connotation.
I'd like to get this out of the way: I'm perfectly fine with revealing future content; I have no trouble with it. If people don't want to see it, they shouldn't be looking it up. I also don't think it would be necessary to ask Jagex for permission, except that I believe the files to be illegal. However, unless this issue is proven legal, I oppose using the images on the wiki because it condones an illegal activity. I don't care if I'm not going to get in trouble. I don't care if the wiki isn't going to get in trouble. I oppose condoning an illegal act.
You still have not said HOW IT IS ILLEGAL.


3rd
As I said, I would not oppose using the images if I believed them legal. However, using an illegal image is condoning the illegal act. Also, Jagex not supporting us is no reason for us to break real-world laws, and it doesn't matter if they're out for themselves.


Robert
Again, Jagex not supporting us is no grounds for us to break real-world laws, and, again, I would support the use of the images if I did not believe them illegal. Furthermore, it is not fair use to put an illegal image on your website, whether or not other sites have it circulating. Fair use is an exception to copyright law, not anything else. On the point of "are we encouraging it:" Yes; by using images gained illegally from RSMV, we are condoning RSMV. On the point of "complete source of information:" providing illegally gained information on account of this argument is, in my opinion, RS:GTS.
You are again, confusing two important points. Just because YOU BELIEVE the images to be illegal does not mean that they ARE illegal. See the difference? Once again, you have not said how it is illegal.


3rd
I question the legality of viewing illegal images. Can you prove that it's legal to view illegal images? I don't think that they could act against an innocent viewer. However, I'm unsure. Also, I disapprove of breaking a real-world law because Jagex failed to put a proper lock on the files.


Hello
I disagree. Leftiness 21:25, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
How do you disagree?

And that is my refutation of all your arguments. ⁓ Hello71 01:13, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Comment again about fair use - Let me be very clear here why I claim and assert that uploading images generated by the player inspired and created "Runescape Model Viewer" is perfectly legal: Accessing that content and uploading those images under the terms of fair-use rights requires absolutely no license, terms of service agreement, or any sort of permission of any kind from Jagex of any sort at all. This is a legal right we are talking about and critical commentary of an aspect of the game we all know as "Runescape". I'll admit that fair use is incredibly limited, and it has to be used in context with some very prescribed limits that are defined under law and legal precedence (particularly for those places with common law like the UK and the USA). Concerns about reverse engineering are completely irrelevant.

BTW, to show consistency on this, I have also noted places on this wiki such as the in-game dialogs between a player and NPCs are something which we can't allow.... because it goes too far and abuses the fair use privileges. Fair use exists, but we can't run roughshod over it either. We need to stay well within those limits, including that we can't use images obtain through more "normal" means like a screen shot of the regular user client except for critical commentary as well. Some of the use of rune images in player signatures, for instance, is illegal as it is a violation of fair-use principles. If we are going to be consistent here and note the law in a hard case, we really need to come clean and look for all violations of the law on this wiki and try to clean them all up. This is something that happens currently on the wiki that I am asserting is illegal.... and it is controversial that I even claim it is illegal.

If, and this is the big if, if there is a law being broken and involves reverse-engineering, it is the software developers who wrote the RSMV, not those who merely use it. There may be a judicial injunction to prohibit the redistribution of the model viewer software, and if this wiki was to somehow host the distribution of that software or provide links to those distributions, that could be a problem. Do you, Leftiness, know of any such links on any page of this wiki including in these discussions? I furthermore note that such reverse engineering is perfectly legal, but that is a completely different issue entirely and not within the purview or scope of the discussion here. All we are talking about is if this wiki should "publish" those images for content we already don't have on this wiki already (because it is found only in the cache) and uploading those images that were obtain from some means... perhaps even from a 3rd party.

It is not illegal to publish an image that came from reverse-engineering, or even "classified" sources from Jagex. I used this example before, and I'll use it again: If for example this was a wiki about automobiles and some engineer posted on yet another website some "classified" images for an upcoming automobile vehicle that is supposed to be kept secret and is considered a trade secret. Those images are then in turn re-published on several other prominent trade journals and websites. Would it be responsible or irresponsible for that wiki to also upload those images (which that car company doesn't really want widely published) onto that wiki?

Why is a video game any different than an automobile here either? I promise you that the major automotive magazines and websites like Car & Driver would certainly jump at a chance to publish such a "leaked" image of a future automobile design and not think twice about doing so, or major newspapers like the Times in London or the New York Times. How and why those newspapers would publish those images would be under principles of fair-use as well. This is what I'm talking about, and it can be a for-profit commercial enterprise that can reproduce images without regard for copyright licensing... as long as it is in the scope of fair use. I also assert that Jagex putting such images into the cache amounts explicitly to a leak on the part of Jagex as well.

The terms of service agreement is completely irrelevant at least so far as this wiki is concerned. Yes, you can seem to think that the terms of service agreement applies due to the fact that you can't obtain the images except by playing the game, but I am also asserting that is immaterial. Fair use doesn't apply to terms of service agreements and is completely immaterial to this discussion. The law permits this kind of use of copyrighted material, and no license of any kind is needed for its use. In other words, the law trumps the terms of service agreement, not the other way around. You don't give up your rights when you sign a contract, and if a clause implies that you do give up those rights, that is an illegal clause in that contract. Yes, companies like Jagex can put in clauses into something like a terms of service agreement to assert obligations that are improper for them to make in the first place due to asking such obligations is illegal. --Robert Horning 04:09, April 15, 2010 (UTC)


Comment -

Hello: I disagree with your argument because of two reasons: I am not simply saying "Follow Jagex blindly," and I haven't said anything about morality.

As I've said, "I've asserted several times that I believe acessing the cache to be illegal. I stress that I assert this, meaning that it is my opinion. It has not been proven. However, unless it is proven legal, I disapprove of using the images on the wiki. I can't stop you from viewing them personally."

I am not mixing up the terms law and rule. It is against the law, established by the government, that it is illegal to violate a terms-of-service which you agreed to. Now, as I've said, I don't care if there is no risk of anybody getting in trouble. I don't care if there's no risk of the wiki getting in trouble. I do not condone an illegal act. Since it is not proven legal, I oppose it.

I feel as though there's a general misunderstanding of what rules apply in-game and what rules apply here. Here is my opinion: It's not allowed to swear in Runescape, but you can swear here; the difference between swearing and violating the terms of service is that violating the terms is breaking a real-world law. Swearing is not breaking a real-world law, but it is against Jagex's in-game rules, so they can punish you in-game with a mute or ban, but they can't press legal charges against you for it.

Again, it is not proven legal. Until it is proven legal, I oppose it. I assert that it is illegal on account of violating the terms of service clauses about reverse-engineering and decompiling. I also assert that it is illegal on account of the third-party software rules about directly connecting to the server and decrypting the communications between the applet and the server.

I used the terms "I believe" when addressing the legality because it isn't proven. That's my whole point. If it were proven legal, there wouldn't be a problem. If it were proven illegal, there wouldn't be a problem. I'm debating arguments to the best of my ability, and I'm definitely not making generalizations about the entire supporting party.

Robert: If it is illegal to put un-licensed, illegal music on the internet, why would it be allowed to put illegal, un-licensed images on the internet? I assert it is illegal to access the cache, therefore having or viewing the images is illegal, and posting them on the internet is illegal... even distribution, considering how simple it is to download images from websites, even if the distribution is unintentional.

In regards to removing our wiki's fair-use violations, I would support you as vehemently as I am opposing this proposal.

In regards to "the software developers would be in trouble:" I disagree. The devlopers would be in trouble for making it, and the users would be in trouble for using it to commit an illegal act. Using someone else's tool to commit an illegal act does not put all the blame on them.

I've asserted more than once that putting cache images on the wiki is condoning RSMV, which I assert to be illegal, whether or not we say "Here's how you can get these yourself!" Whether or not Jagex takes the time to find and punish illegal actions is also irrelevant, to me.

You say that reverse engineering it is legal; please, discuss it. I feel it is quite relevant and in the scope of the discussion.

It is not legal to post illegal files on a website. In the case of auto magazines, I assert that they only put those images in their magazine because the worst that can happen is "Please remove those from your magazine." I believe that response to be the worst even we could receive, and we are definitely less powerful... less capable of defending our actions. My point is, if the company really felt like it, they could press charges and have the magazine or website remove the images. It is illegal to post illegal images. Since I assert that the cache images are illegal, I assert that it is illegal to post them.

I think it is irrelevant whether or not the cache images are considered a leak.

I assert that fair use applies to our use of legal images under the premises of commenting, criticizing, news reporting, as stated in the law itself. However, fair use is for defence against copyright infringement; I've already said I don't think copyright infringement is an issue, anymore. Fair use is no defence against breaking a law other than would-be copyright infringement. On the point of "not losing rights in a contract:" by agreeing to Jagex's terms, you do not lose any rights. You do not gain the right to reverse engineer the Jagex product, but you did not have that right in the first place. Unless you prove that there are illegal clauses in Jagex's terms of service, in which rights are lost, for example, I assert that the terms do apply. Leftiness 23:12, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

If it is illegal to put un-licensed, illegal music on the internet, why would it be allowed to put illegal, un-licensed images on the internet?
My reply in few words: fair-use doctrine.
To make this more clear, the distribution and wholesale copying of complete songs by whatever means, including digital distribution, is certainly illegal. I've made that distinction abundantly clear in past discussions on the Yew Grove, and have even called other editors on the carpet for this very reason when music tracks from Runescape have been uploaded to this wiki in their entirety and have demanded that they be deleted from this wiki as copyright violations.
I'll repeat this again, fair-use doctrine (and fair-dealing doctrine in the UK) does not require any sort of license at all. You are not asking permission via fair-use to use that content. It does require acknowledging the copyright holder and there are some legal requirements that demands an acknowledgement that there are certainly some very tight restrictions and limited circumstances under which such copyrighted content can be used, but there certainly isn't a blanket prohibition of all forms of duplication of those images in all forms.
You are correct that fair use applies to the use of images for commentary, criticism, and news reporting. The question that begs to be raised is if images that are derived from the product of reverse engineering is somehow not covered under fair-use, and I am responding here that fair-use also applies. It is under copyright law, and perhaps trade secret law that Jagex can act here. BTW, trade secret laws are even more narrowly defined in terms of their scope of jurisdiction and generally can't be held to 3rd and 4th parties. It is under this sort of rationale that I am asserting the only operating authority under which Jagex could demand content removed would be under copyright law, and it would be American copyright law via the Berne Convention as well from a U.S. federal court.
Under copyright law, there is no distinction between "illegal" and "legal" images, as all are treated the same. Either you are using those images under license and with permission, or you are using them under fair-use provisions. When this wiki was started, every single image used on this wiki was under fair-use provisions and not a single image was used with permission. Indeed I am asserting that to make contributions to this wiki under the terms of the GFDL (and now CC-BY-SA) that the only legitimate means to preserve that sort of copyright license for further end-users is to use images from Runescape under conditions of fair-use. The means and method used to obtain that copyrighted content is completely irrelevant. I'll admit too that Jagex now has some permitted uses of images and in some ways what we do here in terms of screen capture images from the regular user client is "by permission", but I would assert that such terms and conditions as applied by Jagex are contrary to the terms of the CC-BY-SA license. It is for this reason I am also asserting that all use of all images from the game is under the terms of fair-use doctrine.
Perhaps we have a difference of opinion here, but I have never in all my years of study of copyright law seen any sort of distinction here in terms of how copyrighted images were obtained that impacted its status of fair-use.... including incredibly controversial images. Once the images are "in the wild" you can't stuff pandora's box back and pretend they don't exist. The distinction between legal and illegal images simply doesn't exist and this is making up new law where no such law exists either.
I'll admit that there may be "illegal" use and distribution of images. Using images for decorative purposes or for making a competing and derivative product is certainly illegal. Reverse engineering of Runescape and creating something like Moparscape is certainly illegal, especially how the models and even much of the source code from the game is copied in a wholesale fashion. I've brought up and it has been brought up that using images of the runes in the wiki logo is an illegal derivative use of copyrighted images. Please let's not get this mixed up here.
If copyright law is going to be invoked, learn what that law is and what is illegal and not illegal. It is not illegal to display and use copyrighted content from something like the RS model viewer under terms of the fair-use doctrine as long as it is used for critical commentary. A game guide of the nature we have for the most part on this wiki is indeed a legitimate fair-use application as long as the article or part of the wiki is about that image. To the best of my knowledge, the copyrighted status of images from the RSMV is not under dispute and such copyright is legitimately claimed by Jagex. I am not disputing that fact either. --Robert Horning 09:12, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

Obtaining the cache

Has anyone realized that you DO NOT HAVE TO AGREE TO DOWNLOAD THE CACHE? Once you open the game in your internet browser, the RuneScape client begins downloading the cache, as soon as the Java applet loads. Simply by clicking "Play Now" on the main page, you automatically download the cache. ⁓ Hello71 00:36, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

Materials (including without limit all information, software, data, text, photographs, graphics, sound and video) placed on any Jagex Product by us or on our behalf are protected by copyright and other intellectual property rights of ourselves or our business partners / suppliers / advertisers. You may not use these materials or any Jagex Product except in accordance with these terms and conditions and for personal (i.e. non-commercial) use only.

You agree that all intellectual property or other rights in any game character, account and items are and will remain our property.

 

It may not ask you directly when it is downloading, but by creating an account and using their website, you've already agreed. Also, I want to request closure of this discussion. No new points are being brought up, it is clear there will be no consensus at this time. Sometimes it's just best to give the discussion a rest. --Aburnett(Talk) 01:54, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

My point is you don't need to create an account to download the cache from which the files are extracted. ⁓ Hello71 02:09, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
Also, this is quite important to get consensus for, as implied consensus is being used as reason for deleting these images. ⁓ Hello71 02:11, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
Use of this website is subject to our Terms & Conditions and Privacy Policy.
 
Simply by using their website, you have agreed. Also, see RuneScape:Consensus#No_consensus. This discussion is going nowhere, its better to close it and bring it up again later then to go in circles. --Aburnett(Talk) 02:15, April 16, 2010 (UTC)


Comment - Support Closure - I've sent an email, and I assume TE has sent his letter. I believe that this cannot be solved without a court's decision. Leftiness 02:34, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

Sent an e-mail where, to whom, under whose authority, and why? Are you demanding judicial action and are you willing to pay for that sort of adjudication? Under what sort of court jurisdiction are you demanding that this be resolved? Are you also stirring up the pot so much that you are demanding that my account along with all of the supporters of any proposal to permit these images to be uploaded onto this wiki (and the images kept from deletion) be permanently banned from playing not only Runescape but any Jagex game as well, including all secondary accounts too? Just how far have you gone here?
You are certainly not trying to reach consensus here, but instead are stirring up the pot and creating controversy for the sake of being controversial. I would love to come to a consensus here, but I don't see any sort of budging on your part from the position that there is no compromise possible at all. It doesn't have to be this black and white, which is my point all along. By having a take-no-prisoner's attitude, that is why this keeps going into circles and isn't going anywhere. I've certainly agreed that we shouldn't be taking content from the model viewer willy nilly and plaster it everywhere in the wiki, but at the same time I think there are some very narrowly defined purposes for which it can be used. All I'm asking is to help define what those very narrow purposes might be.... to which the reply is none at all. That isn't consensus and certainly isn't closure. Sorry, this request is a failure to even suggest that closure is going to happen. --Robert Horning 08:33, April 16, 2010 (UTC)


aburn, u havent really been part of this discussion. whys it hurting you? im getting annoyed with the way that people are acting like if there wont be concensus then we must, right away, end the discussion. maby there wont be consensus, but whats it hurt to keep it open? why should threads have a time limit on them? both you and reven arnt in the discussion, so i find it rather annoying that you are requesting closure of something you have nothing to do with. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 15:20, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

Keeping a thread open indefinitely drains the time and effort of users, especially if a discussion really is going nowhere. It would be redudant and unnecessary to keep such threads open, plus with the endless arguing back and forth, tensions and frustration tend to escalate. In any case, any user can request closure if they see it fit, regardless of whether or not they are activtely participating in the discussion. C.ChiamTalk 15:27, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
the fact that they "can" doesnt change the fact that its annoying. id be surprised if users are contributing to this instead of editing. and, if thye are getting annoyed or frustrated, they can just leave. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 15:55, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
This thread and related concepts has been going on for well more than a year. Unless those who insist on a complete prohibition are willing to at least acknowledge some sort of modest compromise or that we can draft a policy that very narrowly defines the legitimate use of these sort of images, we never will come to a consensus. I can wait another year or two if necessary. Runescape will still be around then, as will Wikia and hopefully much of the rest of this community. --Robert Horning 17:14, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
There has been over 364kb or discussion on this- tell me what has been established? Caleb summed up my thoughts perfectly. --Aburnett(Talk) 18:24, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
what has been harmed? WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO COME ONTO THREADS U HAVE NOTHING 2 DO WITH AND CLOSE THEM? i mean, if it was hurting you or something, but man- cant you just ignore this discussion? more is being gained then being lost. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 20:22, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
NEGATIVE. We just keep jumping from one argument to the next with NO sign of anything remotely resembling a consensus. This is, what, the 5th incarnation of this thread? It's two weeks old and it's already 177 kilobytes, with nothing substantial said except in the bottom one-fourth of the page. He has knocked four times. 20:33, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
I'm simply expressing my opinion, don't start YELLING at me. In my opinion, nothing is being gained. --Aburnett(Talk) 11:42, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
(!) means yelling. caps just mean emphasis on important ideas. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 14:41, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Comment -

Robert: I believe you've overestimated my vehemence. I sent an email to lawcontact@jagex.com. I briefly provided the factual information: there is a cache, this is what RSMV is, this is what RSMV does. Then I gave my opinion and asked that they look into the matter. I sent the email on my own authority, representing my opinion. Also, I'm not demanding court action; I just personally believe the supporting party to be so strongly anti-Jagex that not even an official and specific statement from them would fix it for them; that is my opinion, mind. I didn't mention banning. Furthermore, I am not being controversial; I feel as though all valid points have been covered, and I disagree with the supporting party on all of the supporting arguments.

In regards to consensus: I've already said there will be no consensus in this issue. Those whom I've noticed opposing do so not for low-quality images or for spoilers, but for legality. As I've said, I feel as though there's no way to argue it out. There are several phrases in the terms that I think effectively address the issue; Supporters assert that the terms don't apply on account of a, b, c... It goes in circles, and the reason is because of the inability to compromise. Make no misunderstanding; this is not the fault of either party. Simply, it is black and white in this sense: there is no compromise on legality.

I sat down and thought before I wrote the email, and I feel, contrary to my previous statements, that it isn't getting anywhere. Furthermore, I've been slowly coming to the believe that none of us are qualified to determine what is and isn't legal on such a gray-area issue as this. I sent the email; I stand by my decision. I only hope, if there is a response, and it logically shows illegality, that the supporting party steps down. Also, again, I would support using the cache images if they were proven legal. Until then, no policy may be drafted.

On account of this being a failed attempt at closure, RS:CONSENSUS states: "The topic has been open for a long period of time and the discussion has reached a standstill with no sign of consensus forming. The topic should be closed, on a basis of no consensus." I also think RS:SNOW applies. I've presented my argument, you've presented yours, and I see no way that an agreement may be made. Again, there will be no compromise on the legal issue. It is either black or white, illegal or legal, and that is the entire basis for this debate. As soon as an official, legal declaration has been made, this debate ends, and, until then, our constant bickering has no effect on the outcome. This is my opinion. Leftiness 20:30, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

dont close, move the thread, if possible, to a location were we can discuss stuff without being required to reach concensus by a certain point. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 20:41, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
What you said is absolutely true. While I have not contributed to this discussion at all, I know that there are issues, such as abortion, where there is no middle stand; it's either one way or the other.  Tien  20:43, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
I'll be blunt. Demanding a legal opinion from Jagex on this issue is something that is not only unhelpful, it is actually counter-productive to our effort here. Besides, Jagex and their legal counsel is not there to give you legal advise, but rather to give legal advise to Jagex. It is a completely bone-headed move on your part and I hope that when you engage in business dealings in the future, no matter what line of work that you end up in or in what ever field of endeavor, that you never do something like that again to what may be opposing counsel. If you were an employee of mine and I found out that you had done something like that to what may have been legal counsel of a potential adversarial litigant.... particularly their legal counsel directly... I would have simply fired you. I am not kidding here either. Don't ever do something this stupid with a future employer if you can help it.
Yes, you are free to do whatever you want here, but this is tantamount to a legal threat, and fits IMHO under the same principles as wikipedia:Wikipedia:No legal threats. I'd suggest that you look up that policy on Wikipedia before you do something else like this again. No, that doesn't have the force of policy on this wiki, but it is something to at least review in the future. We have drafted some letters to Jagex on behalf of the community, but it was from a position of win/win for us and Jagex too. There is no winning on this issue, as the only answer Jagex can possibly give is "we insist you respect our intellectual property" or something else along those lines. There is no other answer that any legal counsel from Jagex can possibly give, at least if they are even somewhat competent and worth the money I'm sure they charge Jagex.
An action of this nature does not reach consensus, but rather is an escalation of the affair and disruptive to the community. Copyright issues in other wiki contexts have been resolved peacefully without invoking such a legal threat or action, including from outside parties who have been seriously bent out of shape over some issue or another. I'm sorry that you felt I'm disruptive to the point that you had to appeal to "higher authority", but that is precisely the fallacy of your arguments here, Leftiness. I'll also note that it isn't so black and white as you are making it out, but I am pointing out that it is safe ground so far as there is ample legal precedence on this issue to permit these images on this wiki.
I just hope other users on this wiki also see how disruptive such an action might be as well. I can only hope that such a letter at this point merely ends up in the dust heap of the in-box for Jagex counsel and nothing else happens, including no reply of any kind. That also seems to be the most likely outcome as well. It also shows a lack of willingness to come to a consensus. --Robert Horning 11:05, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
Comment -
Robert: Maybe you misunderstand my actions and intentions. As I said, I did not ask for or take legal action. I sent an email asking them to look into the matter, suggesting they make an official response somehow. I sent it on behalf of myself, not the wiki. I apologize for making comments that were perceived as legal threats.
Personally, I expect, should they respond, that the reply will say "Respect our intellectual property." If it says that and absolutely nothing else, I see reason to continue debating the issue, as they clearly don't have anything more firm... more legally powerful to say. However, I also expect that any counsel worth the money they charge Jagex would provide a bit more ammunition than "Don't touch;" they would cite phrases of law in a response.
In regards to the "win/win" comment: I have no authority to send a letter offering a win/win situation, and my intentions were not to convince Jagex to allow us these images. I want Jagex to prove if they have the authority to tell us not to use the images; I want it proved legal or illegal. There are three outcomes that I forsee: Jagex proves the action illegal by referencing law, Jagex responds with a flimsy answer that doesn't prove anything, or Jagex does not respond. They won't respond with "Yeah. Go ahead and do that; it's perfectly legal."
In response to "this does not reach consensus:" I disagree. While it doesn't follow the natural Discuss, Propose, Call, and Modify format, this action has the potential to bring facts into the discussion. It isn't yet known whether these facts will oppose or not oppose RSMV; surely they won't support it, but I feel as though an official, informed statement from Jagex is necessary. The above general statement about reverse engineering is, of course, not accepted as informed. I agree that it isn't informed, and so I sent the email.
Now, I can understand why you feel as though this was an escalation of the affair, but I'm unsure how it's disruptive to the community. I did not invoke legal threat or action, and no action may be taken against us as I believe I've successfully stalled the use of cache images until legal decisions can be made. I also have to say that I don't think you or anyone else is being disruptive, but that, as I've said, I feel a statement is necessary. Also, how is it a fallacy that I wrote to Jagex? In regards to my explanations, I feel as though it was well reasoned, if not necessary.
Furthermore, it is black and white in my use of the saying. I described the legality of RSMV to be gray, meaning it's uncertain. Regardlessly, using the images is either illegal or legal, so it is black or white in that sense, whether or not we know it to be.
Again, I did not send this letter with a lack of willingness to come to consensus, but to bring facts into the discussion. It has been asserted more than once that Jagex has no power; I'm calling their hand. We'll see if they're bluffing. Leftiness 17:45, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
It's not important what Jagex says, because Jagex is not the law. You cannot logically use what they say for or against discussions about the law. Facts are important, but also logic is important in applying the facts to the question we want answered. Example: B is TRUE if A is true and C is true if B is true. Thus, if A is true then C is true. If, in a group, someone does not follow logic, and at least one person does, consensus will be unfortunately impossible. To state or question things over and over that have been logically proven true or not true is to argue against logic and makes consensus impossible.--Agamemnus 18:18, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I have not asserted in my previous statement that Jagex is the law. I simply wish to know if Jagex knows what they're talking about. As I said, if Jagex says "Don't do this because I said so," we know, at least, that they don't know what they're talking about. In that case, I think it would be reasonable to continue our own debate of the topic. If they say "Don't do this because of this law and that law," then we know that they do know what they're talking about. If they know what they're talking about and they respond with an informed statement, I feel it will be the RSMV-supporting party's job to refute this statement and the RSMV-opposing party's job to defend it, should they decide. In context of your comment, if Jagex's response contains facts, then we can discuss whether they can be logically applied to answer our questions. In response to your "true or not true:" I disagree. As I've read, fair use is a very gray area which, when legally disputed, is based largely off of the judge and jury's opinions of the specific issue, guided by vague guidelines. I'd love it if someone could find a court case similar to this one so that we can check the verdict and decide from that. Personally, I don't think a judge would agree that RSMV is fair use. Regardless, if the issue were logically proven true or not true, then I don't think there would be a debate. Robert keeps asserting that we shouldn't go to Jagex's lawyers for opinions... I disagree. As I've said, I'm calling their bluff. Leftiness 03:09, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

(1) Ok, we can agree then that Jagex isn't the law.


(2) You're more than likely going to get no replies at all. The other unlikely alternative is that you'll get an email with the ToS. I would be extremely surprised if you were sent any sort of thoughtful commentary on the topic -- it's a 99.999% chance that these guys won't do ANY work if they aren't paid or their client isn't being sued. Edit: In fact, you would more likely get a relevant response from the US Copyright Office. Try them instead!


(3) Certainly, the "fair use" of something can sometimes be in an undefined legal area, but it's not likely you'll find a court case for anything similar to this; however, what a court does is it establishes facts and then applies its opinions to any contradicting facts. The facts have been laid out for you. These images are to be used for a non-commercial use, a public commentary, and in a use that will not encroach on any possible plans Jagex may have for those images. Those are three things that are facts and strong mitigating factors in favor of fair use as explained by the US Copyright Office.


Now, would you please define for us which specific part of using an image interpreter like RSMV to generate images for the purposes of critical commentary that you believe might not be fair use? Is it the use of the images? The generation of the images? The use of the RSMV to generate the images? The actual programming of the RSMV? The dissemination of RMSV and/or its source code? They all have different fair use rationales. Just saying "I don't feel like it's fair use" is neither here nor there... it does not offer a counter-argument to refute or accept.


EDIT: Furthermore, where does it stop? Are you proposing that each and every rationale for fair use be present in enormous amounts in order for something to be "fair use"? No. That's not how it is. If that were the case, this wiki would be empty. It's based on both a qualitative and quantitative analysis. You must have a baseline. The wiki copies some text verbatim; you can use that as a baseline, for instance. You can also take a look at what other fan sites have done in terms of using raw content of freely available images... well that's just it, isn't it? Those "RSMV" images are all freely available even for non-members!

--Agamemnus 03:30, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Thank you for lightening your tone. It makes this a much less stressful discussion.

In the event that we get no response, I feel no harm has been done.

I agree to those facts, and I would support using the cache images if I believed the case were that simple.

I think that the use of the cache images would more likely be legal if it were legal to access them in the first place. More likely because of my below discussion of fair use. Much in the way that it is illegal to distribute licensed music freely over the internet, I believe it is illegal to distribute licensed images freely over the internet. I believe the images are clearly licensed in Runescape's terms of service. The copyright owners have the right to say who has the right to have their files. They have the right to tell us that we have to agree to their terms to have the files. There are two ways to get the files from the cache: you can violate the terms and reverse engineer the cache, or someone else can violate the terms and transfer the files to you, in which case you are in possession of files which you don't have the right to have. In the same way that torrenting music is illegal, I believe transferring the files is illegal, because you don't have the license to have them, and reverse engineering revokes your license according to the terms. Continuing this train of thought, how could it be legal to distribute images which can only be gotten through an illegal act? I don't believe fair use applies because it isn't legal to be in possession of those images, so it seems logical that it isn't legal to upload those images to a website, thereby distributing them to people, none of whom have a license to have them.

Disregarding that I believe the act to be illegal, I don't believe it satisfies fair use on the following accounts. In this section, I reference Stanford's explanation of fair use. Apologies to those whom I told fair use was not an issue. Things happen when I read more than what has been discussed here, as I've shown more than once.

  • The purpose and character of your use

The purpose of the use would be either to provide new aesthetics or to provide new insights. However, the aesthetics, from what I've seen from a gallery linked above, are at best hardly an improvement upon what we currently may provide with screenshots.

Furthermore, any insight provided would be matter-of-fact. In the case of the dragon pickaxe, RSMV users noticed a red pickaxe in a cache image. It was asserted that this obviously hinted at the release of a dragon pickaxe. However, any RSMV user can get that image relatively easily, especially considering the availability of RSMV and guides to help with its use.

I assert that the modest benefit of focusing attention on a specific image does not outweight that we would be copying the work verbatim.

  • The nature of the work

Our work would not be factual. It would, in fact, be completely speculative. Despite the fact that it's obvious that the idea of a dragon pickaxe was pondered, there is no guarantee that the items in the cache will actually make it into the game.

Furthermore, it is not factual, but artistic. You aren't simply stating a fact, but copying an artist's work.

Finally, the owner has the right to determine when the work first publicly appears. Regardless of legality, fair use is slighted in regards to the fact that Jagex asked RSMV users not to access the cache.

I assert that the minor benefit of possible previews is outweighed by the fact that we would be copying the work verbatim.

  • The amount and substantiality

In using the cache images, we would be copying the entire work, verbatim, over and over. This is the entire amount and all of the substantiality.

I assert that the modest benefits are outweighed with this, as well.

  • Good or Bad?

A morally offended judge may rationalize his decision against fair use. Even if the use were technically legal, it is undetermined whether or not a judge will see reverse engineering the cache with a third-party tool after being told by the copyright owner that they would not like you to access it... It is undetermined whether a judge will see this as morally right, thereby ruling in favour of fair use.

In concluding my discussion of fair use, I restate that the benefits are slim, and I believe the potential objections outweigh them. However, as I've said, there's no way to tell without taking it to court.

I restate that I disregarded my legal concerns in the above discussion of fair use; I still hold my stance on the legality of RSMV. Leftiness 04:44, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

We are not copying the complete work when displaying an image of say the dragon pickaxe derived from a screenshot of the RSMV. The "original content" is the actual model, which is a 3-D representation of which we are only taking a 2-D view of that model. This by itself would fit with the "excerpt" provision of fair use as it is not a substantial duplication of the original... but there is more. There are also thousands of models in the cache, of which we are only talking a handful of those items which will be covered by any sort of policy that permits these images on this wiki.... again a very limited scope compared to the whole of the work.
There is of course the copyright claim that can be additionally asserted by the authors and publishers of the RSMV that isn't being considered. That is an extra fly in the ointment so to say that does cause some additional complications and even more of a legal nightmare in the sense that we are involving yet another party into the equation. Given the nature of those who wrote the RSMV, I am not significantly worried about them asserting their secondary copyright claims, and everything displayed is a derivative copyright from Jagex.
The only concern here is the source of the image. The legal precedence I can claim here are images used in news publications, and in particular tabloid magazines and paparazzi that hang around celebrities of various kinds. Some of those images have been taken via what would amount to be illegal means, and those photographers would certainly deserve to go to jail for their actions. Still, the publication rights including their use under terms of fair-use by 3rd party publications doesn't go into how those images can subsequently be used. The photos of U.S. soldiers performing abuses in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq certainly wasn't cleared by the U.S. Army, the U.S. Department of Defense, nor any other branch of the U.S. government.... yet those images were widely published by a great many organizations and all of that was under terms of fair use.
Our concern here isn't insisting on what a court may or may not rule on a formal lawsuit that may be titled "Jagex vs. Robert Horning" (if I were to upload an image from the RSMV to this wiki... as an example), but rather what the policy of this wiki ought to be for these images. I've tried to state my case that these images are legal so far as to remove the legal aspects from the argument here. There is copyright abuse on this wiki, but in this case it isn't a copyright violation or at the very worst it is a very gray area that certainly has legal precedence backing up publication and is something that a good intellectual property attorney would be willing to defend so far as to establish legal precedence on a matter like this. That is the absolute worst case scenario, and frankly with all of the other blatant copyright violations on this wiki I think this would be mostly ignored. It is creating a mountain out of a molehill to insist this is illegal.
More to the point.... where do we go from here. We can't resolve this issue by saying "there's no way to tell without taking it to court". I don't want to get this into a courtroom and it is disingenuous to hope it gets there. I assert it is wrong for administrators to be deleting these images within minutes of their being uploaded to this wiki simply on the basis that they came from the RSMV. That is where I have the problem, and I insist that there is a place, perhaps extremely limited but still a place, where images of this nature can be used with content on this wiki. I am not advocating for nor do I think there should be widespread use of images from the RSMV either, but I do think it is reasonable to find some sort of compromise other than a complete and blanket prohibition of these images. That is the policy I'm trying to seek consensus over, and I am asserting that the legal status of the images is something that needs to be dropped from the rhetoric of those seeking the blanket prohibition. I insist that these images, if used in a limited scope that can be defined by policy, is perfectly legal. So help me establish that policy here, please! --Robert Horning 13:46, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Requesting closure (again)

This discussion is much more heated than it needs to be. There have been no new arguments, and there is little chance that any consensus will develop, unless we get a response from Jagex, which I doubt, given their keeness to ignore our existence. Thus, I ask that a neutral sysop close this. I would close this myself, but by virtue of my vote way up at the top, I am no longer neutral. --King LiquidheliumTalk 15:08, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

for about the 20th time, the discussion is still going. maby we wont reach concensus, but we are still discussing this. IF YOU DONT WANT IT HERE, MOVE IT TO A PLACE WHERE THREADS WONT BE CANCLED AFTER A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME. i see no reason to close a thread unless we are A) not disussing anymore or B) an agreement has been reached. maby we wont reach concensus, but who gives! its an interesting discussion doing no harm to anybody. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 15:17, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
3rd age farcaster, cool down. Shouting at other users will get you nowhere. Discussions can be closed if they have been going on for a reasonable amount of time but are going nowhere. As it is, there is no other venue to have this sort of discussion. Where would you have it? A regular talkpage? Whatever conclusion they may reach there is not necessarily the community consensus on that issue, and the Yew Grove is the correct venue for this sort of thing, it will not be moved. C.ChiamTalk 15:22, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
"cool down"? dude, im not mad. if i was mad i might use (!), but i havent ued a single (!) in that sentince. underlines are just for enphasis of important stuff, not shounting. we should have a forum where people can discuss stuff, maby see if it will be a good idea and/or working out problem before presenting it on the yew grove for formal support/oppose voting. if a proposal was rejected, you could also take it to the forum-like place for people to see what, if anything, should be changed before bringing it up again, or agree that it isnt a good idea to bring it up again. if no such place exists, then i suggest we make one. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 15:47, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
Internet etiquette has it that typing in all capitals is construed as shouting. In any case, whether or not such a page should be created is besides the point. This is not the place to discuss whether we should have one, propose your idea on a separate thread. C.ChiamTalk 15:54, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
there is still no reason to close this, exept for the fact that it may not belong on the yew grove. Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 15:57, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
I will quote myself from earlier on: Keeping a thread open indefinitely drains the time and effort of users, especially if a discussion really is going nowhere. It would be redudant and unnecessary to keep such threads open, plus with the endless arguing back and forth, tensions and frustration tend to escalate. It definitely belongs on the Yew Grove, but there still is a reason for it to be closed. C.ChiamTalk 16:01, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

if cache images not allowed, what other images are not allowed? people have mentioned the rune images- is it against irl laws for us to be using those? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 15:51, April 18, 2010 (UTC)


Comment -

Robert: In the case of the dragon pick axe, you are most definitely copying the "heart" of the work, as explained by Stanford. The most important part was copied. Also, the cache is like a collection of art: just because there are thousands doesn't mean copying too much of one is ok.

I disagree with the paparazzi argument. The images they take are fine under the first part, that they add insight and create new understandings. However, lack of permission weakens this on account of the nature of the work. A photographer's picture definitely captures the heart of the work, and his picture can financially affect the celebrity, star, whatever. I assert that big publishing companies can say "Fair Use!" only because they have so much money and power that nobody is going to bother attacking them for fear of being buried in tons of paperwork that effectively stop the proceedings, then obliterated in court with a minute loophole which only a ridiculously expensive lawyer would find. It would be a waste of time and money to press charges against their claim of fair use, and they obviously decided that the pictures didn't hurt that much.

All: As I've said, I'm willing to work to remove copyright violations from this wiki, including the logo, pictures in signatures, and other places obviously not covered by fair use. However, I'm not going to work on more than one at a time.

I support closure of this argument. Disregarding my opinion of RSMV legality, I believe that a policy for the cache images' use can not legally be drafted until the issue is proven legal. We in this argument can not determine the legality of posting such images due to the nature of the fair use law. Leftiness 17:13, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Support closure - We should all just take a time-out. Re-consider your opinion, try hard to come up with a compromise. We should stop this discussion, which has become a huge, tl;dr "yes-no-yes-no" war, and after some time start a fresh and new one, with a proposal to finally finish this extremely long discussion. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 20:24, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

re-consider your opinion? whats the point? if we close it here, we wont bring it up again will we? if we do when will we? who makes the fresh proposal? how can we "re consider" our opinions if we dont know what we can possibly do to reach out to the other side? Third-age robe top 3rd age farcaster Third-age druidic robe top 20:36, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
Calmly think about the other side's arguments. That's impossible to do in such a heated discussion, but if we close this and restart it in like a month, everyone will have had plenty of time to think calmly. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 21:01, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Closed - No consensus. This long and ugly flame war can now be put to rest. Magic-iconStelercusIlluminated book of balance 00:49, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

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