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Forums: Yew Grove > Allow admins to participate in the raffle
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This thread was archived on 17 September 2018 by JaydenKieran.

hello wiki friends, after Forum:Revamp the clan citadel raffle admins in the clan can't enter the raffle. some of us are poor and like money too, so lets allow admins to join the raffle. also it seems to come up a non-trivial amount of times in our secret admin chat that don't exist.

Discussion Edit

pls help me i'm poor - 22px-Logo.svg.png22#.png 13:42, September 3, 2018 (UTC)

But you do raids like all the time Honour Coelacanth0794 Talk Square sandwich 13:42, September 3, 2018 (UTC)
Needles.png my family is starving and I don't know why. 22px-Logo.svg.png22#.png 13:47, September 3, 2018 (UTC)
It's not like it's gonna be rigged, I don't see any problems with it. Sliske symbolBacon BeaverRelic helm of Sliske chathead 13:55, September 3, 2018 (UTC)

ok - for just 1 cap a week, you can help make a difference to TyA's life in his time of need xHR7zpA.png6encXAo.png 14:18, September 3, 2018 (UTC)

Strong oppose Obtaining needles will feel better if you're getting the money to buy them with yourself

love, a cabbage collector --Sucy_orb_2.pngScuzzy BetaLuna_Nova_sigil.png 07:01, September 4, 2018 (UTC)

Support give me money --Iiii I I I 08:22, September 4, 2018 (UTC)

Oppose - I'm not sure if this is a serious thread, but I'll assume it is. The current setup of the raffle is that any clan admin can verify citadel cap for the raffle. I think it's bad optics to have people be able to enter themselves into the raffle - indeed, in the original raffle that I ran, I was the only person entering tickets and made myself ineligible, and in Gareth's refined citadel raffle, the people able to directly add entries to the spreadsheet were ineligible for participation. I think in the interest of a presentation of fairness, we should continue the practice of making people who can verify raffle entries ineliglble.

If there is significant interest among clan admins who want to enter the raffle, I would be a lot more comfortable if we simply reverted to Gareth's raffle's system, where a subset of clan admins would be allowed to verify raffle tickets, and thus be ineligible, and everyone else would be able to enter.

Also, Ty really should pay for his needles himself. --LiquidTalk 03:38, September 5, 2018 (UTC)

Yes, this is a serious thread. I feel like the stipulation that you cannot add yourself is fair. 22px-Logo.svg.png22#.png 05:09, September 5, 2018 (UTC)
I was under the impression that only a subset of admins could upload the verification in the first place. I never had anything to do with the raffle in the past and then discovered I couldn't enter because I was somehow involved without my knowledge. It was a bizarre argument then and is no more understandable now. cqm 07:16, 5 Sep 2018 (UTC)
Basically everyone can grant themselves 1 entry to the raffle. Anyone with the rank Captain+ can verify someone has capped in the citadel to grant them their additional 2 entries. That is how you're "involved" in the raffle. 22px-Logo.svg.png22#.png 14:01, September 5, 2018 (UTC)
It's less of a "you are involved" and more of a "public service" argument. The idea is that people are not becoming CC ranks for personal enrichment, and should be willing to give up nominal things for the clan. This raffle was to encourage participation from people who are less involved in the clan, so having clan admins (usually fairly active people) hog the prizes kind of defeats the point. --LiquidTalk 02:33, September 6, 2018 (UTC)

Oppose - If the clan raffle is intended for the community and for the younger ranks, then let it be for them. We introduce immorality by allowing admins to enter the raffle. How would it look if Gaz won the raffle one week? I want to also bring up the fiasco of the Christmas raffle we had last year, but I'm sure I'd be rebutted against on the argument that it was literally one person upset and he's blocked anyway. Haidro (talk) 14:26, September 5, 2018 (UTC)

How would it look if Gaz won the raffle one week?
— Haidro
It would look like he won the raffle because Gaz is a trustworthy person and all entries are recorded. Wasn't the Christmas raffle an independent raffle held by one user, independently of the clan? 22px-Logo.svg.png22#.png 02:21, September 6, 2018 (UTC)

Mild support with addendum - I don't see why not, as long as whoever draws the raffle is not part of the raffle (which, at minimum, is me). I don't see why admins can't add themselves, they're trusted with more tools than this. Quest Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 02:57, September 8, 2018 (UTC)

Oppose - I think the purpose of the raffle is to encourage new people to join and existing clannies to stay. Having admins participating in the raffle defeats the point of that. I agree with other comments that if you want to be ranked up to clan admin (or in ET, who are also able to add raffle entries) you should be willing to give up participating in the raffle and be willing to be involved in adding the entries. I strongly disagree with going back to the older system of having a few designated people doing the raffle entries - the current way gives much more clarity of who people need to ask to be entered and means that there a much larger number of people who can be asked to do so. Magic logs detailIsobelJRaw rocktail detail 10:48, September 10, 2018 (UTC)

No, admins participating in the raffle doesn't discourage people from joining the clan, nor does it make people want to leave the clan. There is no reason why admins can't be in the raffle and also help with the raffle. The only necessary restriction would be not to add extra entries for yourself. 22px-Logo.svg.png22#.png 13:40, September 10, 2018 (UTC)

Oppose If you are Wiki or clan admin you should know how to make so much easy loot then the couple mill from the raffle should not matter to you. Let it be for those in need. Degenret01 (talk)

Uh, what? May as well restrict the raffle to people who have under a 500m bank then. Haidro (talk) 07:54, September 11, 2018 (UTC)

Comment - What is the point of the raffle? It seems like we're only giving away money because we have money to spare, but it's being done so arbitrarily. Now that capping in the citadel/importance of resources has been simplified, there really isn't any reason to have the raffle in its current state anymore.

You can't say that it encourages people to participate in the clan because the raffle only requires you to say "can I be added". In fact, they don't even need to say that, they can just add themselves on the raffle page. And if it's because we care about people staying in the clan, then why should we cater to people who are only in the Clan for GP? The majority of people who enter the raffle are very active in the clan and I don't see any of them planning to leave, nor would they be encouraged to if the raffle was discontinued. There's absolutely no connection between participation within the clan and the raffle.

Ty, you were even supporting the removal of the raffle in the previous thread, what's changed? It just seems like the majority of people who voted to keep the raffle wanted to keep some sort of incentive going, but there were no new ideas. Remove or change the whole structure of giving out money. Haidro (talk) 07:54, September 11, 2018 (UTC)

I'm still fine with it being removed. However, since it isn't, I'd like to be able to participate since it is there. The change to have ranked members be unable to participate is silly and based on the flawed idea that Isobel thinks our admins are untrustworthy and will rig the raffle, which there has been zero evidence of ever happening. 22px-Logo.svg.png22#.png 01:27, September 14, 2018 (UTC)
I don't think Isobel ever thought that - it certainly wasn't mentioned here or in the original proposal. Her position, which I agree with, was that limiting it to recruits and corporals encourages them to engage in clan events. I was the one who was concerned with the optics of entering or drawing yourself, though I never thought that admins couldn't be trusted with it. I just thought it looked bad. --LiquidTalk 01:40, September 14, 2018 (UTC)
My apologies to Isobel then. The point still stands that you and Haidro are of the belief that if an admin won the raffle, you think it would look bad on us because our admins might appear to be influencing the raffle to the lowly members of the clan who exist to enter the raffle and do literally nothing else in the clan. 22px-Logo.svg.png22#.png 01:47, September 14, 2018 (UTC)
I mean I think people do more in the clan than "nothing" most of the time, but besides that, I just think it's super lame to have the people who organize the raffle to win the raffle. Maybe this is a dated reference but do you remember Seto Kaiba from Yugioh organizing his own tournaments so he could win? Wouldn't it have been so lame if he won his own tournament? At the end of the day I just don't think this is an issue that is big enough for a clan admin to bother with. If a clan admin really wanted to enter he or she could always just give up the rank, most clan admins don't do anything either. --LiquidTalk 01:54, September 14, 2018 (UTC)

Oppose Honestly, it just seems like bad form to allow admins to enter the raffle. Any contest in the real world (eg, calling into a radio station for a prize) you are automatically excluded from winning if you are affiliated with said radio station, or even if your immediate family is. While I trust our admins not to rig things, it just looks bad (see above, "What if Gaz won..." per Haidro) and opens up the potential for someone, especially a newer clan member to think/accuse someone of cheating (even if they are not, which as I said, I really don't think anyone would, but the idea is they "could"). The only way I would consider supporting would be if the raffle was always drawn by a specific set of admins (whether that be based on Events Team, or a new Raffle Team, or something else) who were the only admins to verify cap and make the draw, and would themselves be ineligible. For things to remain fair (and also have an appearance of fair, unbiased, and transparent) there has to be some people "running" the raffle that are NOT eligible to win. (And really, we are talking like, 5m/week and slim chance at a bond per month? That's pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things. On this note I agree with "giving up something nominal to be an admin" per Liquidhelium above.)  FoxMyles Prower  Fox detail 17:39, September 14, 2018 (UTC)

Closed - It's clear that there's no consensus to allow (clan chat) admins to participate in the raffle. If there is a separate proposal for removing the raffle entirely (e.g Haidro's comment above), please create a new thread. xHR7zpA.png6encXAo.png 11:04, September 17, 2018 (UTC)